"French artillery caissons and wagons." Topic

Hi everyone, does anyone know if French caissons and ammunition wagons would have had unit identification painted on them..'5e regiment de artillery de pied'.. Etc? Also if infantry regiments supply caissons had the same? I haven't seen this depicted ever.
Thanks.
Alan.

Until the train d'artillerie was militarized from January 1800, the equipment would be marked to the owning contractor – example "Compagnie Brandt" – if they were using company-owned vehicles.

Under the Empire, the "compagnies du train d'artillerie" moved the artillery vehicles. In general, there was a train company for each artillery company. Additionally there were 4-6 more train companies in the corps artillery park and perhaps 12 more at the army artillery park. The vehicles circulated for re-supply : the train company actually serving the pieces getting filled vehicles for empty ones.
Similarly, the artillery train provided infantry ammunition.
So, other than perhaps temporary chalk marks, there was no need and no way to identify the vehicles to a particular unit.

The French garde had their own artillery train and park. As they marked their ambulance wagons "Garde Impériale" (in gold lettering outlined in red, I think) to keep away the riff-raff, they likely did the same with their artillery vehicles. But note that llne artillery train units might be assigned to the garde, provisioning the garde with extra ammunition compared to the line. Maybe these assigned train compagnies used a temporary marking, such as in whitewash?

I got this off of the Historex site:

It's called a regimental van.
The Historex site has some great visual information.
historex.com/crbst_33.html

Thanks Michman, riff-raff nice! A useful reply as usual from your good self. When organized into a grand battery there must have been a lot of work to do guiding the caissons to the appropriate battery constantly resupplying. Or when a battery was moved forward.
Thanks too d88m19440 for the photo and link. Now if this model were 18mm I would be impressed.
Alan.

It's pretty nice, regardless of scale.

Beautiful model, beautifully made.

Each infantry battalion had a fourgon or caisson to transport food (mostly bread).

It stayed with the battalion and would thus likely be so marked. On the model note the compartments to stow utensils and the large tailgate that could fold down to be a working table. All very similar to the "chuck" wagons of the American west.

After 1809, the manual/instructions refer to these as "caissons pour transport du pain". I think this indicates a simpler version than the model based on the artillery caisson chassis and running gear.

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"guiding the caissons to the appropriate battery"

They caissons didn't go all the way to the pieces. They queued : 1 about 50 yards back, the next 50 yards further, a third (if available) another 50 yards – plus or minus depending on terrain. The artillery men, not the train soldats, would take a large box (coffret) to the 1st caisson to get reloads. Maybe this was a hold-over from the era when the train guys were civilians. When it was empty, the first caisson would peel off for the corps park to get exchaged for a re-filled one and then return to the end of the caisson queue.

The Russians did it differently. All the "train" functions were (and had always been) organic to the artillery companies. They also had some rounds on the pieces and limbers, which the French did not. The first caisson moved closer to the pieces and the rounds were moved directly from the caisson to the piece. When empty, the caissons went to their division's supply "dump" to get refilled, then went to the artillery company's designated rally point. When all the caissons were empty (normally about 180 rounds per piece), the artillery company (or subset group of pieces) was supposed to displace, get replaced, and join the caissons to rest, refit, repair, etc.

I suppose both ideas (i) were not always exactly executed in practise, and (ii) worked well. I know of no instances where either the French or Russians reported being unable to fire for lack of supply.

I know of no instances where either the French or Russians reported being unable to fire for lack of supply.

Probably very true but, I'm sure I've read that some artillery ran short of the correct sort of ammunition (canister, if memory serves) on occasion and had to slow its fire until new caissons could be brought up – and if firing canister things were probably getting hairy.

"the correct sort of ammunition"

standard provisioning, including coffrets, boxes, etc. & 3 caissons per piece

Russian 1805
--- smaller 2-wheel, 3-horse caissons
--- 6-lber gun : 144 ball, 33 cannister
--- 1/4-pud (12-lber) unicorn : 144 shell, 33 cannister, 10 incendiary/star
--- 12-lber gun : 80 ball, 30 cannister, 10 incendiary
--- 1/2-pud (24-lber) unicorn : 80 shell, 30 cannister, 10 incendiary/star
Light Foot company : 8x 6-lber, 4x 1/4-pud unicorn
Battery Foot company : 8x 12-lber, 4x 1/2-pud unicorn
Light Horse company : 6x 6-lber, 6x 1/4-pud unicorn
Battery Horse company (from 1813) : 6x 12-lber, 6x 1/2-pud unicorn
See : link

French An XI
--- larger 4-wheel, 4-horse caissons
--- 6-lber gun : 204 ball, 63 cannister
--- 12-lber gun : 144 ball, 63 cannister
--- 5 pouce 7 ligne (24-lber) howitser : 99 shell, 12 cannister
Light Foot company : 6x 6-lber, 2x howitser
Reserve Foot company : 6x 12-lber, 2x howitser
Horse company : 4x 6-lber, 2x howitser
See : link

a very interesting topic, about the markings, yes and no, I did see on contemporary images quite a few without markings, mostly sort of civilian waggons used for transportation, required on the spot and never handed back, but also sort of regular waggons issued by the army, here some examples where clearly the markings can see seen, in case anybody has those immages of higher resulutionit would be highly appreciated

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@von Winterfeldt

Excellent info and images – many thanks !

From top to bottom, I copied the location and year for each :
--- A. Zürich 1799
--- B. South Germany 1800
--- C. Russia 1812
--- D. Beresina 1812
--- E. Leipzig 1813

from Fournier-Sarlovèze ….

from Geißler ….

Caissons, Caissons, everywhere.

Indeed, enormous losses for the Grande Armée, not that easy to replace.

While topic seems to be French vehicle marking, seen some tantalizing idea the Russians putting slogans on tanks and vehicles didn't start in WWII but long ago. It's possible Russian vehicles had them on them in the Napoleonic era

interesting topic I wished to open in an other forum before I realized that you can't find a lot of non-secondary sources pictures :/

Albrecht Adam 1812…no markings

men and caissons of the Train d'Artillerie Battalions

For Russians ….

In Catherine's time, highly detailed pictographic designs were used to identify vehicles, perhaps due to the lack of literacy for most NCO's and even some officers.
Example (top : regimental church wagon – bottom : caisson for regimental papers – both for infantry) :

By regulation from Paul's reign onward, vehicles were supposed to be marked for purpose and unit in white paint on each side. I have not see period iconography demonstrating this.
See : PDF link

Judging by markings on forage caps, muskets, rifles, shovels, tents, etc. – the markings would be in cursive and typically abbreviated. Perhaps something like ….

А.Г.П. : 3.Г.Р. : Провіант.
А.Г.П. : 3. : Пров.
Astrakhan Grenadier regiment – 3rd Grenadier company – Provisions [i.e. food]

20.Е.П. : 1.Р. : Патрон.
20.П. : 1.Р. : Патр.
20th Jäger regiment – 1st Jäger company – Ammunition

The artilley is said to have written patriotic slogans on their limbers. I have no specific examples, and fear back-dating of later Russian practise. Common patriotic slogans of the era that might have been used :
За Веру и Отечество – For Faith and Country
За Веру и Царя – For Faith and Tsar
За Веру, Царя и Отечество – For Faith, Tsar and Country
Жизнь Царю, Честь Богу – Life [belongs the] Tsar, Honor [belongs to] God
And especially in 1812 ….
Богъ, Вера, Отечество – God, Faith, Country
Не Намъ, а Богу – Not [by/for] Us, but [by/for] God
Again, one would expect cursive lettering.

The 6-12 cm tall white numbering seen in museums (typically 2 or 3 digits above a horizontal line with a 1 or 2 digits below) is a Soviet era marking by the museum.

another
French Revolutionary 1795 Passage du Rhin
unfortunately in black and white and can't read the marking but interesting given there is clearly the republican coat of arms trophy

I love the idea that the Russians painted patriotic slogans on their wagons in this era. It means I can legitimately put владимиру не понравился его отель* and возвратные глаголы** on wagons as well as KV2s.

TMP link

* "Vladimir did not like his hotel"
** "reflexive verbs"

that looks great, thanks Lilian

I will add my thanks too