"80th anniversary of the Dieppe raid" Topic

RIP all the honoured dead.

RIP all the honoured dead.

RIP all the honoured dead.

RIP all the honoured dead.

RIP all the honoured dead.

RIP all the honoured dead.

whoa…..that's a lot of posts

Always seems to me that this would be a more interesting game than D-Day. Perhaps give the Churchills a slightly better chance of not getting stuck on the gravely beach.

Never been entirely sure of the ultimate end game to this raid…

Many years ago I read a book about Dieppe and the attempt to capture some German radar equipment (I think it was). Could make a good game, I'd think. I believe the title was Green Beach.

Indeed! I think the raid was in part to give the Germans something to think about and in part to let Stalin know we hadn't forgotten him – plus the chance to snatch up some German tech

I think the latest theory was cover for a grab at some enigma related materials.

A solemn salute to all who fell that terrible day.

Massive casualties but the lessons learnt reverberated through Torch, Husky, Avalanche and Overlord.

A leap into the unknown for which men died, but the lessons learnt saved lives in the long term.

A sombre day, still surrounded in myth, unfortunately, much of it due to the predictable efforts of senior brass to avoid responsibility, which began mere days after the raid. Monty, Mountbatten, and Hughes-Hallett lied early and often about their role, purged documents, or conveniently forget their decisions at key points (including the dry-run fiascos of Exercise Yukon I and then Yukon II). The liars' careers thrived after that, and Ham Roberts, the 2 Cdn Div commander and an otherwise very capable officer, became the goat. Crerar, a teflon general who also survived his role in the Hong Kong fiasco, also sailed through this one to later command First Cdn Army.

Gaming Dieppe offers tons of options, including Lovat's very successful commando raid at Varengeville, complete with a lucky shot by a friendly aircraft strafing the German battery. This compares with the mess at Yellow Beach were the commandos ran into a German coastal convoy on their run in, got shot up and dispersed, but still landed a few boats, and where a certain Major Young and 20 or so men performed brilliantly.

There are plenty of ways to game the battles at the casino, which allowed small groups of Canadians (RHLI and FMRs) to get into town, however briefly, and even more at Green Beach, including the radar raid, which was actually a single guy attached to an infantry battalion. Finally, there is even the more recent snatch-and-grab theory (historian David O'Keefe) that the whole raid, including Ian Fleming's team (yes, the one and only), was elaborate cover for an Enigma-Ultra related scheme.

The horrific air battle (70+ Allied squadrons including more than 50 fighter squadrons) could also spawn some dice, with losses of 99 Allied a/c and 48 German, and everything from massive dogfights to strafing to light bomber runs to smoke screens to attacks on gun batteries and, later, B-17s hitting a German airfield.

Thanks, Dave Jackson, for remembering.

6,000 Allied ground troops
230+ naval craft
74 or so air squadrons

Was there not also an RAF type attached to the Bruneval Raid, similarly to evaluate the radar equipment and dismantle it?

If the raid provided a warning that you don't send tanks onto shingle beaches, so that at D Day the allies did not, it is just possible that the losses the raid cost were less than the ones it averted.

15 of 29 tanks landed (as many more tanks were waved off and made no landing at all) actually made it off the beach. Of the 14 that did not, two went in the ocean from rolling off early, and another got trapped on its landing craft due to damage to the vessel. Many of the remaining 11 moved around on the beach, firing in support of the troops until they ran out of ammo, right to the bitter end. Four, maybe five, lost tracks or had jammed gear from beach shingle, but they were pivoting and moving a lot, not just sitting there spinning track. One got stuck in a German ditch that was part of some ongoing defence construction. Only two were holed by German AT, one in the side, one in the rear. Otherwise, the frontal armour proved rather fine, at least at the distances encountered and against German 3.7 and 5.7 ATGs. But firing only their own AT shot at buildings and trenches (they could fire no HE) etc was more or less useless, and engineers could not reach the roadblocks to clear paths through the plaza exits. Three of the tanks landed were also flame-equipped.

In other words, the shingle beach explanation is more myth than anything, though it has legs like Gulliver.

An interesting what-if concerns the tanks landing at Pourville (Green Beach) with the South Sasks and Camerons, and maybe heading inland or up the Western Headland, instead of at Dieppe proper. A more westerly landing was included in earlier plans. But with the main landing at D+30, it is still hard to imagine them landing, getting off Pourville, crossing the Scie (if landed west of it), leading the charge up the headland and disposing of Germans defences in time to help at Red and White beaches, where their absence, in effect, would have denied the main landing two dozen or more mobile pillboxes.

Still, an interesting what-if scenario, closer to the original Rutter idea than the eventual Jubilee one.

But a one-tide landing didn't give much time for anyone or anything, and it is Monday morning quarterbacking, I suppose, to wish otherwise.

RIP all who were there …

Hi

I'm very much with Fred on this one. The 'lessons learned' and 'it saved lives in the long run' excuses were put about by those who were culpable for the disaster after the event and were more worried about their future careers. One of the main reasons for it going wrong was that nobody really seems to to be clear on what it was for or trying to achieve in the first place.

Paul