"Looking for some suggestions" Topic

I've been playing IABSM now off and on for the last year and while it's not a horrible set of rules, they just aren't clicking with me.

I find the armor rules lackluster.

I find the bucket of dice for infantry fire gamey. It's not horrible, but it seems like the dice rolling is all or nothing.

And my biggest issue with the rules are that they are not really laid out that well. It's hard to find concrete examples. Some rules aren't adequately laid out or covered with enough depth for my tastes.

So, can anyone suggest another set of rules that maybe cover what I've laid out above a little more clearly than the IABSM rules?

I'd like to stick to company size rules. 1 tank = 1 tank. A stand of infantry is a team/squad.

I prefer a little more depth for the armor rules, if possible.

I have been taking a looking at a board game, Panzer by GMT and I like them, so I'm exploring that a bit.

Good luck with the search.
The problem is that many responders will tell you what they (rather than what you want) like; job done.

Maybe narrow the search a little with details of how many players and time available for a game?

WW2 games seem (the majority) to vary from 1 to 5 hours and use 1-4 players

If your representational ratio is about 1:1 and you have a ground scale then match your table size to force size. i.e what size do you like/have then match rules that fit this.

martin

Maybe convert Panzer to miniatures table?

A few rules out there might interest you, Battlegroup and Chain of Command come to mind. Battlegroup has had many converts from Flames of War as no rebasing necessary do teams on a single base works. Very active Facebook group, with the designer and co-conspirator frequent the page and also many players who have played the game for years also will reply.
Check out online as there are a few examples of play. Also check in your area what others are playing also.
Rules are written with 15mm & 20mm in mind, but there are guys who play them in 6mm, 10mm, and 28mm also.

I'd recommend a look at Battlefront WW2 as well.
It has some great morale and maneuver rules and is well supported online.

Also Fistful Of Tows for an armour game. It also supports WW2 as well as modern.

I've also played the original Panzer rules with miniatures and it was good fun.

The only thing I had reservations about the exactness of armour thickness and round penetration performance. It was never that exact 🙂

I'd recommend adding a bit of 'jitter' to the armour thickness and the penetration values. How you do that is up to you but FFOT3 seems to incorporate all that already.

Crossfire? It is company level.

I'd recommend GHQs WWII Microsquad but I'm a little biased. 3rd edition coming soon that addresses a lot of issues with the first two. Al least that what I've heard.

Didn't we do this about 6 months ago? Chain of command is just the same. I do not know FFOT, battlefront or battlegroup. Crossfire is good but needs very dense terrain. Panzer is armour centric, as in lots of detail in the armour but very thin on infantry rules, as in infantry is a poor second thought. Are you looking for rules with a good effort on infantry rules or just/mainly armour?

I've heard the infantry rules aren't very robust in Panzer, and I would prefer a set of rules that handles both armor and infantry/small arms fire equally.

Maybe it just doesn't exist?

WWII Microsquad does just that, especially once infantry get bazookas, panzerfausts, piats, etc.

I have been looking for a while at this. I want a set of rules which are infantry centric but handle armour well. My background is Tractics which has similar detailed armour rules but frankly the infantry rules suck. I have yet to fins a set of rules which handle both well but feel I may have to work up my own. Without getting into something like ASL I like the original five core company command (NOT the people's edition). It doesn't get into the weeds wrt infantry but has a good feel. If you can give me an email we can take this off the forum.

The old Easy Eight, Battleground rules are great for tank vs. tank, but the infantry rules are man-to-man.

If you can bolt on a fire-team or squad level set of rules to that, you'd be set.

Not sure which rules are good for the latter, so would like to know more about this and that, myself.

I've also toyed with WaT (What a Tanker) rules, and adding on house-rules for them, that I came up with on my own. I think they might work, but they're very simple, so perhaps not your cup of tea. Just some thoughts thus far on that, and no playtesting yet, so I need to do a bit more of that.

I'm primarily interested in armor-centric games with some infantry support, and not the other way around (at least for now).

Panzer or Tractics get into the weed of armour details. Conflict of Heroes system is great for infantry but uses the same system for vehicles which leaves a little to be desired. Of course CoH and Panzer are hex based games although there is a panzer miniatures version out there. Me I don't mind hexes myself.

A few of the games that have been mentioned are games I really love: Namely, Battleground WW2 and Battlefront WW2.

For your scale, however, I would recommend Arc of Fire.

Arc of Fire is a game that was clearly an attempt to make Battleground WW2 work better for larger games. BGWW2 really works best as a platoon level game but many played it with a company or more per side, despite the fact that the game struggles at that level. So Arc of Fire is extremely similar but streamlines certain things so you can play a reinforced company per side.

As for Battlefront WW2, this is another terrific game but it is a larger scale than you are looking for (battalion level, 1 tank = 2 to 3 vehicles). Also, Battlefront WW2 has really abstract rules for handling hits on tank units. It is a terrific game, but it doesn't sound like it is what you are looking for here.

I'll give an example of a tank fight in Arc of Fire so you can see if it is for you:

Italy, 1943. A US M4 Sherman is driving up a crumbling road in hilly terrain… right into the teeth of a waiting German assault gun.

The US player pulls the card for his Sherman platoon first. For the sake of simplicity, let's say there is only one tank left in the platoon. First, the Average-rated crew (TAC 6) roll a D10 for spotting. Unfortunately, they rolled a 5, which is below their TAC level, so their spotting ability will be halved for this round. (TAC is the basic ability of all men to do things when they need to be done in battle… think of it as a mixture of skill and discipline.)

Up ahead, in the shadows beside a shattered villa, lurks a Semovente M42 75/18 "requisitioned" by a German crew.

The Sherman crew is unbuttoned, which would normally allow them to spot a concealed, non-moving enemy tank at 40", but this is halved because they failed their spotting TAC roll. The Semovente is 24" away (representing something like 200 yards) and is thus not spotted.

Undeterred by this setback, the US player decides to switch the Sherman into defensive mode so that he will have a better shot at the enemy when contact is made. He succeeds in his TAC roll and the Sherman slows to a halt while the gunner scans the area through the main gun optics.

The next card is the Semovente crew. Regardless of their poor (TAC 7) rating, they can spot a moving tank automatically at this range, even if they had failed the roll. The German player decides to open fire.

The German player rolls 1d10 and gets a 10! He then applies the following modifiers: -2 (Sherman's frontal armor) and -1 (the Sherman moved 8", its maximum road movement as a medium tracked vehicle). The roll is thus reduced to a 7. At this range, the Semovente's 75/18 gun has a fire factor of 6. Cross-referencing the roll of 7 with the fire factor of 6 results in a NS result, or target neutralized. The Sherman crew is shocked by the hit as it slams into the hull of the tank. The players are using the optional vehicle critical hits rule for this game, so another 1d10 roll on a table tells them the Sherman's radio has been knocked out.

The next card pulled is the Sherman tank. Now there is no need to roll for spotting, as the Semovente's attack doubles the Sherman's spotting range (meaning even if they failed the TAC roll, they would still be in automatic spotting range). The Sherman crew is stunned, however, and can do nothing on this card but roll to recover. They roll a 9, well above their TAC rating of 6, and so they snap back into action.

The next card pulled is the Semovente, which spends its action reloading. The first turn is now over.

The cards are shuffled and the first card pulled is the Sherman tank. They have previously spotted the Semovente so they can now fire. The Sherman player rolls a d10 and gets a 9. This is then modified by the following modifiers: -1 for the low stone wall in front of the Semovente and -2 for the Semovente's frontal armor. The final result of 6 is compared to the Sherman's superior fire factor of 4, giving an immobilized result (just shy of a knock out).

The Semovente crew must immediately take a morale test as their vehicle has been immobilized. Unfortunately for the German player, the crew roll a 3, which is well below their leader's "average" (6+) morale rating. The German crew bail out and are broken. The German crew are diving for cover, but because they are appearing in line of sight for the first time, the Sherman can declare an opportunity fire on them. The main gun is unloaded, but the Sherman still has a hull MG and .50 cal on top.

The bow MG rolls three d10, each modified by -1 (for being an internal AFV MG) and another -1 (for shooting at broken infantry). Looking at the MG's fire factor of 6 at this range, we can see that only rolls of 10 will actually matter as the lower results just cause potential broken status (and the target is already broken, so nothing to be gained there). One of the dice comes up a 10 and the Semovente loader is wounded.

The .50 cal rolls five d10 and only suffers the -1 for broken targets (since it is not an enclosed weapon). It also has a superior fire factor of 5 at this range, meaning any roll of 8 will wound and 9+ will kill (after modifiers are considered). Luckily for the Germans, the .50 cal roll is terrible and only one die has any effect: a 10, which kills the Semovente's commander. The crew would normally take a morale check for the loss of their leader, but they are already broken from bailing out so there is no point. They do however automatically become confused.

The next card pulled is the Sherman again. The Sherman crew could have used this card to switch into advance mode, roll forward, reload the main gun and fire with the machine guns. Unfortunately, however, the decision to use opportunity fire while the German crew bailed out into the cover of the ruined villa means that the second Sherman card is simply lost. The Sherman crew spend the card peering down the sights of their machineguns, seeing if another head might pop out of the immobilized assault gun.

The next card pulled is the German crew, their first card for this round. Both the remaining crewmen are broken and must spend this card seeking cover. They crawl 3 inches over the rubble of the villa away from the wreck of their vehicle. Next, they get a chance to rally. Without their leader's superior morale rating, both crewmen test on their own ("poor" 7+) morale. The wounded loader uses a d6, and thus cannot rally at all. The driver rolls a d10 and gets a lucky break with an 8, rallying from his broken state. Finally, the crew can attempt to reorganize around the driver. He makes his TAC roll and takes charge of the surviving crewmen.

The final card pulled for the turn is the German crewmen again. The wounded loader can only act on the first card and is thus automatically ignored for this card pull. The driver, now leading the crew team, switches the crew into defensive mode with a successful TAC roll, knowing that this will make it difficult for the Sherman to spot them in the rubble, and contemplates crawling back to the Semovente next turn to use the radio to call for help.

The end of the second turn comes and the German crew must check unit morale as they have suffered casualties. The German player rolls 1d10 and gets a 3. This is modified by the following modifiers: -6 (since two-thirds of the Semovente crew are broken or KIA), +1 (for being in cover) and another +1 (for being in defense mode). The final result is a -1, meaning the shaky morale German crew are "destroyed." The Semovente driver comes to his senses, throws up his hands and helps his wounded comrade as they walk towards the Sherman tank as prisoners of war.

This video lists squad scale rules.
youtu.be/K8puyPOefo0

I can't really recommend anything as the factors which make a set of rules enjoyable, or not, are so complex that without mind reading ability its hard to provide a useful suggestion.

The issue of rules layout is a classic problem which afflicts many sets of rules. Spearhead may be an example of the best layout I have ever seen for micro-armour, but even in this case you really need to drill down into the rules to truly understand them. Videos can assist, but often videos don't give you want you need as they are often a game between two players with a lot of assumed knowledge. I did an extensive and very boring, set of videos for corps commander which I think provides you with what you need, but they are really boring and often only good for people suffering from insomnia. The most watchable part is the overview: youtu.be/1_fe_OB6VXQ , but as this is an overview it does not provide you with rules instruction.

In the end I created my own examples pdf file for the various rules I use. One of my many examples pdf's can be found in groups.io/g/Bewegungskrieg under files. However the shorted pdf file I ever created is almost 200 pages in length, so I am uncertain how useful it is to new players. I found it useful creating it as I was forced to really learn the rules backwards, but I am not sure how useful it is for other players.

Example game videos' which provided a lot of exact detail about each specific action may be the best way of quickly getting the hang of a set of rules. This shows an example of such a video: youtu.be/zCPnlgXNubE But even in this case its still very boring.

I wish you the best of luck in your search, its not an easy journey.

A classic set out there that meets your scale requirements is Panzer War and best of all its free:
panzer-war.com

No claims as to playability or if it meets your gaming requirements.

Martin Goddard's post +1

Another question that can define possible candidates…..are you playing solo, head-to-head with 2 players, or do you want a multiplayer system?

Actually the more I think about it, Arc of Fire might not fit the bill. It really is most comfortable at the "reinforced platoon" level, with the ability to go up to a company per side (which I would say is where it caps off). Also, it is not one stand of infantry = one squad. You need to have individually based infantry for the game since they can individually fall back under fire (which is a rather odd feature of the game that I have mentioned in past comments on TMP). Arc of Fire is a great game and more appropriate than Battleground WW2 (also a terrific game), but it is not exactly what is being requested in the original post due to the individual basing requirement.

Nevertheless, it was fun to write that example of play… hope somebody found it useful for something!

@Peter, in your video you credit Phil Yates with Mein Panzer (it is actually the work of Mr. Jonathan Coulter). Just so you know!

@Achtung. I enjoyed reading your example.

I am unlikely to play it though. Our club was introduced to What a Tanker a while ago. I enjoyed it. Five or six of us played and we got two games in during the evening. Next time I had a couple of Pz.IVs ready for action.

However, I remembered another friend had recommended playing World of Tanks online. I downloaded it when I got home and played. Wow! A game is seven players versus seven players and the game lasts a maximum of seven minutes! Upgrade your tanks as you improve. No money need be paid out but that is an option.
WARNING – This can be addictive. I do not want to say how many games I have played.

Have fun.

Achtung Minen – Thanks, i will update for my next version.

IABSM are my favourite Ww2 rules. They are weighted towards infantry. They feel the tank stuff is very much an add on.

Have you a specific you don't understand.

I might suggest Mein Panzer which is at about the same level as I Ain't Been Shot, Mum.

In Mein Panzer, 1 vehicle = 1 vehicle and an infantry stand is either a squad or team depending.

Mein Panzer uses one 20 sided die for almost everything so no buckets of dice.

I like these rules and they hit the sweet spot for me between playability and realism.

The starting point for most of the die rolls is based on troop quality which can vary from Green/Conscript, to Regular, to Veteran, all the way to Elite.

I have posted some pictures and narrative from a recent solo game I did on the 6mm Show Us Your Stuff on this Forum.

You can always try O group which is good for the level you are looking at

@Last Hussar – I understand the armor rules, I just find them lacking and you are correct. Lardy rules are infantry focused and I prefer a set of rules that are not.

@Captain Pete – I've played Mein Panzer before and they have better armor rules than IABSM. Maybe I'll give them another go, but for now, I'm finding the boardgame Panzer to be more my liking. More armor centric with a good mix of infantry combat.

@sidley – O group is not the level I'm looking for. Those rules are 1 tank = 1 platoon.

Captaincold69, this is not a minis game, but have you ever tried the old Combat Mission series (Beyond Overlord, Barbarossa to Berlin, Afrika Korps)? It sounds like it would be right up your alley… a unit is a squad or a single vehicle, individual casualties are tracked and the tank system is incredibly detailed. Is that the kind of thing you are looking for? They are available from Good Old Games for very little (I highly recommend Barbarossa to Berlin and Afrika Korps especially).

Alternatively, if you decide to stick with IABSM, I suggest picking up TWAT and using the armor rules from there. They are fully compatible and a bit more detailed.

I'm finding the boardgame Panzer to be more my liking

I am beginning to discover many boardgames can easily be converted to a hexless figure gaming format. I have had significant success with figure game versions of Ancients, napoloenics and WW2/Cold War boardgame rules, especially in attracting new players.

This videos provided an overview of how to convert a boardgame to figure gaming;
youtu.be/gjRO4zBlZtc

If you prefer hexes, then this provides some guides on how to make that work in a figure gaming format.
youtu.be/BO6_tP0-xI4

There is us.

link

Layout, we have improved ours and its laid out mainly in 2 columns with a big index if it helps.

It does go down to Fire teams/squads.

I does do vehicles better (my opinion of course).

BUT

Tanks have to move there turrets like real ones.

There are not really many lists for WW2 but It shows how to generate your own specs.

There is no points systems, they don't work in the real world.

It uses the minimum of die rolls and all are D20.

Its low on random, there are no gimmicks and no strange events.

Its fast play rules wise no long lists of "chants" for morale we do it better and faster (see third comment above).

It does assume you have some knowledge of the tactics.

Finally its a serious game, simple rules but thought is required and some practice to allow you to cope with a real world company, laying out FDF points for Mortars, MG' etc. On the bright side no overemphasis on range bands.

If you intend to only play one or two games its probably not for you.

As always download the free stuff, if its not looking like you stop there.
You can always ask me questions and I will do my best to answer

.

I am a big fan of IABSM as with the random card activation it does capture best the simultaneous activity that takes place in combat. Yes, the armor rules are simple. If you want to roll lots of dice to see exactly where the round hits, at what angle what was loaded, what is the armor thickness, etc. then yes IABSM is not a good fit.

…..that being said, IABSM armor rules do capture some truths about tank combat… the winner is usually one who gets in the first shot, tanks get immobilized often, crews do get stunned and it affects their performance and if you get lots of direct hits on you…there is a good chance the tank crew will bail out.