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""Is the Marine Corps Becoming Irrelevant?"" Topic


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08 Aug 2022 4:05 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian08 Aug 2022 4:04 a.m. PST

…For the first time in its storied history, the Marine Corps has given up capabilities that might be needed worldwide to gain new equipment to specialize for a potential war with China. Those lost assets include tanks, a large portion of the Corps' artillery, heavy engineer equipment, reduced infantry battalions and many helicopters…

Military: link

pzivh43 Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 5:09 a.m. PST

IMO, we will relearn the lessons we've forgotten, and will pay the tuition in blood.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 5:48 a.m. PST

I would never count the Corps out – for warfighting with China, the Army has lots of tanks and helicopters – this does change the Corps from being what is essentially a second land army back to a largely amphibious force

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 6:01 a.m. PST

I don't see this as an affront to the Marines, or a denigration of their role. Berger is said to be a smart guy. And I think you need to look at the Army and see how future roles and capabilities are evolving there, and what kind of new coordination is being developed. Objectives, roles, resources change.

I never really understood the whole Marines with tanks thing. As an elite rapid response force, with naval air support, to be followed by Army heavy support, the Marines seem ideal. But I am not a Marine, just a casual outside observer.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 8:40 a.m. PST

Let's put it this way.
You know you're gonna be in a fight and you can select one soldier fresh out of boot camp— no specialized training— from any of the armed forces to fight along side you.
No offense meant to the other guys, who do their jobs and do them well, but in that circumstance, I'd choose a Marine.

And that's why they'll never be irrelevant.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 8:59 a.m. PST

They are Not irrelevant … They have their place in the US Military. Too many think 🐴💩 like this. The US Military needs to grow. Not get smaller. The PRC/CCP is growing very quickly. They are our #1 Threat … not Climate Change as many at the very top keep pushing. Money is available to build our Military. It's just being wasted on other "priorities".

However, the US Military has problem recruiting, and it does not help the 70% of those of draft again can't qualify to join. And No we don't need a Draft.


No offense meant to the other guys,
I'd beg to differ being former Army Airborne, Air Assault. 😎 But of course I'm biased …

However, graduated from USMC/USN Basic Amph Training at Little Creek in '83. old fart When I was with the 101 Air Assault. Plus worked with the USMC on a number of exercises, etc., '79-'90. They can cover my unit's flanks anytime ! 👍👍

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 9:46 a.m. PST

Ask a Marine. See what he/she thinks.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 9:52 a.m. PST

I am all for growing the armed forces, but with the right stuff. We have got to find,recruit and retain fit Americans. It needs to be a valued career choice. Cut out the waste and use the money for big time recruitment operations, make it happen.

The Chinese are about to run short of military age bodies. Their entire demographic is out of whack thanks to the crazy family restrictions they pushed for years. Now is the time to really get ahead of them. Elderly populations everywhere dominate. I say go all out for recruiting the best people and get ahead of our enemies instead of reacting and responding to their moves.

Lascaris08 Aug 2022 10:33 a.m. PST

Our military spending is astronomical as is. Out of real curiosity, not to be contentious, how would people suggest reprioritizing spending in order to increase force size/power without just dumping more cash into an already bloated system.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 11:19 a.m. PST

The Marines are often declared obsolete--in peacetime. Ask again once our next serious war is under way.

Bonus points for Marine Corps Intelligence, which always seemed to ask pertinent questions which had answers. It was my privilege to watch LtGen Stewart clear out the dead wood at DIA, and as far as I'm concerned we need a dozen of him.

(And before anyone asks, I'm Air Guard and Army, one brother was Army, another Navy and the previous generation was Army, Navy and Coast Guard. Not a Marine in the lot. But I know good work when I see it.)

Lascaris, be careful. My guess is they'd disband divisions before they trimmed COCOM staff.

Dragon Gunner08 Aug 2022 12:46 p.m. PST

"It needs to be a valued career choice."

I would hijack the thread and take it down the rabbit hole with what I was about to post.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 2:29 p.m. PST

Dragon – We need PR pros to make military service look like something a lot of people will get career satisfaction from. The same people that make you believe all kinds of dumb #$&*. The same people who get you to want a certain vehicle or pair of sneakers know how to do this. And the military has to deliver on bonus money, pay, merit based promotion, support for families, medical care, etc.

Lascaris is right about waste. We by a lot of bad products, like the navy's soon to be gone Little Crappy Ships program. We must get less for our buck than just about anybody. Nobody knows what the various F35s cost. The Navy version is said to be over 300 million. Each. I would give up about 4 of those and start a long term jazzy recruitment program based on outside demographics research and PR focus groups. You dont need planes if your pilots weigh 300pounds cause you can't find anybody else. We need fit recruits!!!!

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 2:44 p.m. PST

Now, now— that's "fat shaming". They're not "unfit" they're just "plus fit."

In order for the military to be an attractive career, we need young people who see sacrifice, honor, loyalty, service and patriotism as characteristics to be revered and sought for in oneself. Not sure that's gonna fly with the Tik Tok crowd, where it's all about "me me me."

Thresher0108 Aug 2022 2:50 p.m. PST

Sadly, I fear, our entire military is quickly becoming irrelevant, since its power has been gutted so much since after the 1st Gulf War with endless deployments, troop and equipment drawdowns and retirements, and bone-headed procurement decisions in the last 30 years.

As mentioned above, it is likely that those mistakes will be paid for in the blood of our troops once again at some point in the near future, and the politicos and military brass will get off free once again, instead of being held liable for criminal negligence.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 4:19 p.m. PST

how would people suggest reprioritizing spending in order to increase force size/power without just dumping more cash into an already bloated system.
That has always been a problem. I.e. "The Military-Industrial-Complex" … It has been said, those in power were or are working on that. Yet little really gets "fixed". However, those in top leadership positions seem to get rich.

As a Rifle Plt Leaders '80-'81 then later a Mech[M113] Co. Cdr. '87-'89. old fart With Active Duty RDF units. We were short many things that was in our TO&Es. The list is long from my experience. From what I understand that continues today.

we need young people who see sacrifice, honor, loyalty, service and patriotism as characteristics to be revered and sought for in oneself.
Very, Very, very few of today's generation even can understand those words.

it is likely that those mistakes will be paid for in the blood of our troops once again at some point in the near future, and the politicos and military brass will get off free once again,
Yes I agree … We saw that in WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam … We had to play "catch-up" in many cases causing losses. Too many losses …

The Military does spend a lot of $. USD But for long time the US Gov't spends much too much $ on things that should be a lower priority. Or not even considered. IMO that list is long … too long.

Thresher0108 Aug 2022 5:44 p.m. PST

Sadly, our "leaders" don't seem to have any clue about the threat China poses to the USA, and ALL the moves they are making to undermine, exploit, combat, and defeat us, including buying off our own people.

The whole new agenda currently underway severely weakens the USA economically AND militarily, and only strengthens China, who we are reliant on for solar panels, EV batteries, cobalt, and other "rare earth" minerals that they've cornered the market on, and that we have to buy from them.

America is gutting its energy industry, while China doubles down on cheap coal-fired powerplants, making the USA uncompetitive with them for manufacturing, distribution, and yes, even warfare. We've sold off a good portion of our emergency oil reserves and China has actually bought a portion of that, which is just INSANE.

Clearly, NO ONE in America is looking at the big picture or the long game on this.

Irish Marine08 Aug 2022 7:41 p.m. PST

The Marine Corps is the saviors of masculinity. We seem to be the only branch left that is concerned with war fighting and not some Woke nonsense. I certainly don't agree with getting rid of our tanks; a lot of good Marines went with them. But we are focused on the next fight, I just don't think that's a priority for the other services.

Dragon Gunner08 Aug 2022 9:41 p.m. PST

"The same people that make you believe all kinds of dumb #$&*."

The problem is media articles like this… When women bash and devalue the men that protect them the men will stop protecting them.

link


Then there is the dingbat media with their own sick and twisted agenda… Ironically the people they bash are the ones that protect their right to run their mouths with no accountability!

link

Here is another article about those with a evil and twisted agenda

link

I could go on all night with the articles!

The military is not blameless there are plenty of horror stories from veterans about their own experiences that can be read in social media. The kind of stuff previous generations of young recruits would not find out about until they had signed a contract and were slaves to it thanks to UCMJ.

Example #1

When I was in the Navy in Alameda California I had gotten married and my wife was pregnant with my son. I applied for base housing and was told there was a year waiting list and I could be bumped on that list if someone with more rank wanted housing. The Navy offered me COLA instead for the San Francisco Bay area. The only thing I could afford to live in with the amount of COLA offered was 3 Ghetto section 8 run down apartment buildings in Oakland. One of the apartments I went to with my wife we were greeted by a group of young men. They were quite outspoken about the sexual things they were going to do to my wife when I deployed. (The kind of guys the media is in love with these days…) My wife dug her nails into my arm and dragged me towards the car and then broke down sobbing. In the end I sent her home to live with her parents and I did not see her for a year.

The Navy thinks this is what I deserve and what my family should have to put up with? I could not convince her a military career was a good idea.

Example #2

During my Army enlistment we had a First Sergeant come to the barracks in the middle of the night in a rage. It was January and he made us form up outside in ranks at attention in our underwear. We were locked up at attention until one of us confessed to defecating on his desk. By the end we were urinating on ourselves due to full bladders, shivering and teeth chattering from the cold. The whole time he is threatening us with UCMJ if we break ranks. No one that was there that night reenlisted but this cretin kept his job.

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2022 10:04 p.m. PST

"The raising of that flag on Suribachi means a Marine Corps for the next 500 years." (James Forrestal, Secretary of the Navy, 23 February 1945.)

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP09 Aug 2022 7:23 a.m. PST

The Marine Corps is the saviors of masculinity.
Well a number of Army units at the Co. level or so are still "red meat eaters" regardless of the woke/CRT/1619 "indoctrinations" from above. Infantry, Armor, etc., combat arms units are still warfighters.

We seem to be the only branch left that is concerned with war fighting and not some Woke nonsense.
Again the Army at the lower levels still have some "toxic masculinity" in its ranks. When it comes to warfighting you need that … regardless of your enemy.

I certainly don't agree with getting rid of our tanks; a lot of good Marines went with them.
That was a bad move IMO too.

But we are focused on the next fight, I just don't think that's a priority for the other services.
Disagree … as I said here before, combat arms units may have to sit thru woke/CRT/1619 indoctrination classes. But when it comes to doing their jobs, they are still "predators" IMO …

IMO, You can't really say the USMC is the only one focused on the next fight. Where first Tier elite units like Army SF, 160th SOAR, DELTA, Ranger Bns, and other highly trained and skilled units e.g. Airborne[82d, 173d, 11th] 101 Air Assault, 10MTN, etc.

Oh, and don't forget the USN SEALs, USAF CCTs/PJs … they still are red meat eaters too. 🥩🍖

But again, I was glad to have the USMC attached to our units or alongside us. Even if it was just in training …

So No it would be foolish to get rid of the USMC.

IMO, this woke/CRT/1619/gender ID, etc. 💩💩 will be gone from the US Military when the USA has it's every 2-4 years Constitutional designated regime changes.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP09 Aug 2022 9:44 a.m. PST

Dragon, this stuff is bad for recruiting business and it spreads fast across social media. But this is part of the problem, the military has to deliver on real career support.

Now I have to retract my statement from another thread and make apologies to Legion. I never heard Brooke Baldwin say this @#$&, but she cannot make blanket statements like that. I have worked with ex-military in a government agency. Top notch.

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP09 Aug 2022 12:09 p.m. PST

I am sure when you meet a Chinese soldier on the battlefield, and he is ready to thrust his bayonet into your belly ---
if you just calmly and politely explain your feelings and sensitivities to him he will understand and let by gone's be by gone's.

Russ Dunaway

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP09 Aug 2022 5:39 p.m. PST

Old Glory + 10 … Someone needs to remind the US leadership about that.

Now I have to retract my statement from another thread and make apologies to Legion.
No worries … I can take it ! 😎

worked with ex-military in a government agency. Top notch.
Many are …

LostPict Supporting Member of TMP09 Aug 2022 7:21 p.m. PST

Tanks aren't what makes a service relevant. It's being properly equipped and trained to execute the service' s assigned missions. What seems to be changing are the missions. In addition to diplomatic protection and amphibious forceable entry, sounds like the Commandant has signed up for sea control/denial using long range precision fires and is divesting older mission areas as part of the transformation. So who is going to fight armor when Marines encounter it? Naval gunships, tactical air, naval fire support, drones, anti-armor missiles, etc. Time will tell if that is sufficient. This also implies that the Army will gave to do the heavy lifting for inshore AORs.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP10 Aug 2022 9:31 a.m. PST

Good points LostPict. The USMC still has a mission it only may have "evolved"(?).

And yes the US Army is a much heavier force than the USMC, even when that had Tanks. However, being a former Infantryman, I liked armor support. And my Mech Co. was attached to Armor Bns frequently. So I may be biased …

LostPict Supporting Member of TMP10 Aug 2022 9:36 a.m. PST

I spent a year in Iraq loaned out to the Army. I liked having the tanks around when we were outside the wire. Especially when they were boxing in my humvee.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP10 Aug 2022 7:38 p.m. PST

That only makes sense to me !

dapeters11 Aug 2022 1:20 p.m. PST

So much to unpack here. But if nothing more the name is enough to give would be enemies pause.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP11 Aug 2022 5:01 p.m. PST

Yes, like Rangers, Green Berets, Airborne, FFL, etc. Your enemy should be concerned about these type units.

Heedless Horseman12 Aug 2022 8:37 a.m. PST

I would not want to tell a Marine that he was irrelevant! LOL!

As a totally irrelevant aside… on value of 'collective punishment'.
Junior school. Person unknown had knocked over a bookcase. Headmaster, (NOT Popular!), called an 'assembly' and we had 1/2 an hour of instruction on honesty, 'owning up' and dire consequences of not doing so. Nobody did.

I had NOTHING to do with it. But It DID 'scar' me… I 'felt' guilty of someone else's misdemeanor.
What a shrink or 'Modern attitudes' would make of this… well…

BUT! When we left the Hall… SOMEONE else had left a puddle!

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