"Sjevksi regiment 1812 question" Topic

Hi i just still making my russian 1st corps army and have two resources – Riehns "1812 Napoleons Russian Campaign" and Micromark's 1st Russian Corp army lists i got from WGV

the former lists the Sjevski regiment as Grenadiers, whereas the latter states they are an Infantry regiment

would there be anyone here who might know for sure whether that regiment was grenadiers or just infantry? or would there be no difference regarding its look and activities?

Севскiй Пѣхотный полкъ / Sevsk Infantery regiment

The Sevskets were an Infantry regiment, composed of 4 battalions. The first 3 battalions each had a Grenadier company (composed of a Grenadier platoon and a Marksmen platoon) and 3 Musketeer companies. The 4th "Reserve" battalion served at the 5th Infantry division's recruit depot at Kholma near Moscow and was composed of 3 Recruit companies. The 3 Musketeer companies of the 2nd Replacement battalion served in the defense of Riga. The remaining 3 Grenadier and 6 Musketeer companiers served with the 1st Separate corps.

Serving with the 1st Separate corps in 1812 in the 1st Line of the Corps-de-Bataille
● Commander-in-Chief of the regiment General-Lieutenant Nikolai Alekseyevich Tuchkov-1 : absent – serving as Commander of the 3rd Infantry corps
● Commander of the regiment Colonel Fyodor Alekseyevich Lukov : wounded in the legs by a cannister round during an action near the village of Boyarshchina on 20 July, rejoined the regiment at the beginning of October
● 1st Chief's battalion of the Sevsk Infantry regiment : Commander of the battalion Major Ivan Ivanovich Mikhaylov
● 3rd Commander's battalion of the Sevsk Infantry regiment : Commander of the battalion and Officer-in-Charge of the regiment in August and September Major (Lieutenant-Colonel from 18 October) Pavel Petrovich Tarbeyev-1

Serving with the 1st Separate corps in 1812 in the Avant-Guard
● 1st Combined Grenadier battalion of the 5th Infantry division : Commander of the battalion Major of the 23rd Jäger regiment Prokhor Mikhaylovich Telegin
--- 2nd Grenadier company of the 23rd Jäger regiment : Commander of the company Captain Pavel Matveyevich Verbitskiy-Antiokhov-1
--- 2nd Grenadier company of the Sevsk Infantry regiment : Commander of the company Captain Nikita Ivanovich Khartov
--- 2nd Grenadier company of the Kaluga Infantry regiment : Commander of the company Captain Aleksandr Alekseyevich Narbut-1

Distinctions for Grenadiers, Marksmen and Musketeers are described in detail here : link

While not a Grenadier regiment, the Sevskets were an excellent unit : awarded Grenadier March music for 1809, Saint George flags for 1812 and "For Excellence" shako badges for 1813. In 1812 their flags were :
--- 1st Chief's battalion : 1 white cross & 1 color cross
--- 2nd Grenadier company : none
--- 2nd Replacement battalion 3 Musketeer companies : 2 color crosses
--- 3rd Commander's battalion : 2 color crosses
--- 4th Reserve battalion 3 Recruit companies : none

thanks Michman – your knowledge is astounding – just regarding the 1st Chiefs Battalion, what would the "white cross" flag look like, – like the standard white cross seen in other regiments?

and i have never heard of a "marksmen" platoon before – would this unit be any different visually from other units

These are like Grenadiers but without plume and with yellow cocarde.

First, a correction …. in 1812, the correct spelling was of the name was
Сѣвскiй Пѣхотный полкъ

The "white cross" flag is the first I posted, the color cross flag is underneath.

Russian infantry generally formed and fought in platoons of three ranks and 24 files at full strength. By 1812, all 4-company Guard, Grenadier, Infantry, Jäger and Marine battalions had 1 elite company (composed of a Grenadier and Marksmen platoon) and 3 center companies (each of 2 platoons). The naming of these varied a bit based on the type and number of the battalion, but was the same in ieffect.

The elite company was chosen as the best soldiers in the battalion. The larger men went into the Gren plt, the smaller into the Marksmen plt. They received higher pay. Infantry elite company men might be promoted into a Grenadier regiment by individual selection. Grenadier and Jäger elite company men might be promoted into a Guards regiment by individual selection. With their battalions, the elite companies had no special assignments except when the whole battalion was sent to skirmish (typical for Jäger, sometimes for Grenadiers and Marines, rare for Infantry). In this case the Gren plt formed a reserve and anchor to right and the Marks plt thesame to the left of the skirmish chain(s) or line(s). The elite companies did have special places in formations ….

Using a 1st Infantry battalion in an Infantry regiment as an example, when deployed on the right (the right in front) :
1st Marks plt – 1/3rd Musk co – 2/3rd Musk co – 1/2nd Musk co – Banner Group – 2/2nd Musk co – 1/1st Musk co – 2/1st Musk co – 1st Gren plat

when ployed in a column of platoons the right in front :
1st Gren plat
2/1st Musk co
1/1st Musk co
2/2nd Musk co
Banner Group
1/2nd Musk co
2/3rd Musk co
1/3rd Musk co
1st Marks plt

when ployed on the center in a column of divisions the right in front (the most usual combat formation) :

2/2nd Musk co – Banner Group – 1/2nd Musk co
2/3rd Musk co – -------------- – 1/3rd Musk co
2/1st Musk co – -------------- – 1/1st Musk co
1st Marksmen plt – -------------- – 1st Grenadier plt

3-company Combined Grenadier battalions formed with 6 platoons ….

Jäger Marks plt – Senior Infantry Marks plt – Junior Infantry Marks plt – Banner Group * – Junior Infantry Gren plt – Senior Infantry Gren plt – Jäger Gren plt

Junior Infantry Marks plt – Banner Group * – Junior Infantry Gren plt 
Senior Infantry Marks plt – ------------- – Senior Infantry Gren plt 
Jäger Marks plt          – ------------- –       Jäger  Gren plt 

* Yes – a Banner Group without a flag

The site by Mr. Gingerich that I linked gives all the details as to distinctives. But, to summarize ….
Sevskiy distinctives in 1812 :
--- Russian model 1808 muskets for all of the 1st, 2nd & 3rd battalions
--- flagstaves and other woodwork were black
--- shoulder straps were white with the "5." for the division in red cord
--- the Grenadier company had
◦ 3-flame grenade badges on shakos and catridge boxes for both platoons
◦ 2 fifers, one in each platoon
◦ plumes only in the Grenadier platoon
--- Pompons
◦ 1st battalion : Gren plt all red, Marks plt all yellow, Musketeers white with green center
◦ 3rd battalion : Gren plt red with bottom 1/3 yellow, Marks plt yellow with bottom 1/3 red, Musketeers red with yellow center
◦ 2nd Grenadier company : Gren plt red with bottom 1/3 green, Marks plt yellow with bottom 1/3 green
--- forage caps had green tops and red bands around the head – there was a scheme for company distinctions with lettering and piping which is shown at the link to Mr. Gingerich's site (example : 1st battalion Marks plt : no lettering, piping in yellow at the break between the band and the top and around the upper edge of the top)
--- swordknot straps were white with white fringe – there was a scheme for company distinctions in the colors of the sword knot itself which is shown at the link to Mr. Gingerich's site (example : 3rd battalion Gren company (both platoons) : all red sword knot)

thanks again all, Michman do you have this information written down somewhere? its amazing and you just leave me wanting to know more -
and i am ultimately after all the details of the Wittgensteins forces in Riga region for 1812 –

if this info you have found in a book, let me know please which book as my sources are not so detailed.

also for your little diagrams – is the front at the bottom or the top of them? -ie is the 1st marksmen plt at the front or the rear?

also what is in the banner group? musicians, officers and flagbearers?

Wow! Impressive knowledge on Russian Napoleonic units, Michman. This is what is great about TMP, knowledgeable members helping other members improve their knowledge of detailed unit histories. Well done!

sorry : front is the top

banner group : flagbearers, drawn from the battalion
(with front at the top)
All Heavy Foot battalions (Guards, Grenadier, Infantry, Marine, both 3-company and 4-company battalions)

RRUFURR
RR---RR
RRUFURR

R = Ranker
U = Corporal : some units grouped the battalion's 4 quartermaster corporals here
F = Banner Sergeant Aspirant with Flag : there were 1 of these per company from which 2 were chosen for the Banner Group.

Recall that 3-company Combined Grenadier battalions and 3-company 4th Reserve battalions had no flags – but – 3-company 2nd Battalions (without their 2nd Grenadier company) *did* have flags. All had standard Banner Groups.

Jäger had no flags but still formed a Banner Group : smaller, deleting the Rankers. This applied to the Guards Light Infantry (Life-Guard Jäger & Life-Guard Finland regiments) until the Guards all were awarded new flags on 23 December 1813. These flags were actually delivered after the peace or upon return to Russia.

I do not think that it is known if the white cross flag was in the front or the third rank – I would imagine the third rank.

Early in 1813, it was ordered that only 1 color cross flag per battalion be taken out of the country by Guards, Grenadier and Marine units. Although the regulation was formally extended to Infantry units in 1814, they likely followed this practice from early 1813.

When a battalion deployed, the drummers, fifers and jäger hornists formed a battery to the right of the unit, aligning to its front. The regimental band musisciens formed between the 1st battalion's right flank and the 1st battalion's battery. A batallion or regimental commander might have these stand behind the unit for safety or have 2 drummers and the 2 fifers form on him to relay his orders to the rest of the battery/batteries.

Officers were in various places : in the front line, in front of the unit, to its right and behind it. They were quite spread out, with only the battalion's junior staff officer (a major) and its adjutant (a lieutenant) mounted and riding together on the far right or in the rear of the unit.

Books :
I read mostly Russian sources for Russian infos. The best I know about in English are Mr. Gingerich's site :
link
and Mr. Conrad's site :
link

Here is a great work in English specifically for all the details of Wittgenstein vs. Oudinot & St.-Cyr
link

The actions around Riga and against MacDonald are usually treated seperately. Here is a very good Russian order of battle study in English :
link

And I would always be happy to answer any question(s), if I am able.

thanks for all the links – very helpful – just lastly what is the best source for flags as that Warflag site is just really lacking

i cant find Kalouga or Perm infantry regiment flags for instance and nor a google serach gives me result

The best summary for Russian flags is here : link
But it is in Russian.

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Пермскiй Пѣхотный полкъ / Perm Infantry regiment

They used Model 1797 flags : 1 with white cross and 5 with color-cross. The 46e de ligne took 1 color-cross at Austerlitz. The white-cross and 2 other color-crosses were also almost lost at Austerlitz, being hidden under or sewn into their clothes by prisoners. These three flags were sucessfully smuggled back to Russia, where it was determined that the regiment could continue to have them. They lost another flag with color-cross to the Swedes at Revolax in 1808.
So the 2nd battalion (3 Musketeer companies) serving at Riga and the 3rd battalion serving with 1st Separate corps each had only 1 color-cross in 1812. They seem to have destroyed one or both color-crosses of the 1st and 3rd battalion to avoid capture at 2nd Polotsk in October 1812.
Also, the light brown color may have been rather fugitive, as it was reported as "straw yellow" on some occasions.
The regiment was granted 1 all-white and 5 color-crosses of the Model 1803 flags on 13 April 1813 "For distinction in the campaign of 1812". It appears that only 3 color-crosses were actually presented on 27 March 1814, in line with new regulations.
Woodwork was initially reported as white in 1800, but at least 4 of 6 of these flagstaves were lost at Austerlitz, possibly more. By regulation, woodwork might have been straw yellow from 1809, but such a regulation may have applied only to new and replacement equipment issues. The Model 1797 flags returned to arsenals in 1802 and 1814 had black flagstaves per museum inventories circa 1900 – and this is the "correct" color for 1806-1808, when the flagstaves were being replaced. Given the foregoing, I would go with black woodwork for 1812, changing to straw yellow with the issue of new flags delivered in 1814. This is only an opinion.

1812

1814

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Могилевскiй Пѣхотный полкъ / Mogilev Infantry regiment

They used Model 1803 flags : 1 with white cross and 5 with color-cross.
They lost 1 color-cross fighting the Swedes in 1808-1809 and had another smuggled back by a prisoner, but were not granted permission to use it. So the 2nd battalion (3 Musketeer companies) serving at Riga and the 3rd battalion serving with 1st Separate corps each had only 1 color-cross in 1812. They seem to have destroyed one or both color-crosses of the 1st and 3rd battalion to avoid capture at 2nd Polotsk in October 1812. The regiment was granted 1 all-white and 5 color-crosses of the Model 1803 as replacement flags on 13 April 1813 "For distinction in the campaign of 1812". It appears that only 3 color-crosses were actually presented on 27 March 1814, in line with new regulations.
Woodwork was initially black. They may or may not have been re-painted white sometime from 1809 through 1811 in accordance with new regulations. I would suppose they kept the black woodwork, changing to white with the issue of new flags delivered in 1814. This is only an opinion.

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Калужскiй Пѣхотный полкъ / Kaluga Infantry regiment

They used Model 1803 flags : 1 with white cross and 5 with color-cross.
All six were in normal use in 1812, and likely only 3 color-crosses by mid-1813 (the others being returned to Russia).
Woodwork was initially black. They may or may not have been re-painted straw yellow sometime from 1809 through 1811 in accordance with new regulations. I would suppose they kept the black woodwork, changing to straw yellow with the issue of new flags delivered in 1814. This is only an opinion.

thanks again – i will look at the russian site, – so looking at the Kalouga flag, i guess the warflags one is similar after all – its just that on that site it is not specifically shown rather the Livonian "inspection" flag, which i wasnt to clear on whether that was a flag used in battle also -

I do not know "warflags", but …. yes, the Model 1803 flags were intended to be the same in each inspection, and the ones shown were indeed for the Livonia inspection.

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Your 14th Infantry division – all armed with British India Pattern Brown Bess muskets in 1812 ….

Тульскiй Пѣхотный полкъ / Tula Infantry regiment
Formed in 1773. Used Model 1797 flags – 1 flag with white-cross, 5 flags with color-cross.
Woodwork was initially coffee-colored. From 1809 it may have changed to straw-yellow. In this case I would guess the change was made, as under the new regulation, coffee-color was ordered for the woodwork of garrison units.

Тенгинскiй Пѣхотный полкъ / Tenginka Infantry regiment
Formed in 1796. Used Model 1797 flags – 1 flag with white-cross, 5 flags with color-cross.
Woodwork was initially coffee-colored. From 1809 it may have changed to black. In this case I would guess the change was made, as under the new regulation, coffee-color was ordered for the woodwork of garrison units.

Навагинскiй Пѣхотный полкъ / Navaginka Infantry regiment
Formed in 1798. Used Model 1797 flags – 1 flag with white-cross, 5 flags with color-cross.
Woodwork was initially straw-yellow. From 1809 it may or may not have changed to white. In this case I would guess the change was made as I think it looks much better with the flags.

Эстляндскiй Пѣхотный полкъ / Estonia Infantry regiment
Formed in 1811 from garrison units. They used Model 1800 garrison flags – 1st and 3rd battalions each had one of two identical black-cross flags of the Revel and Pernau garrisons, the 2nd battalion used 1 crimson/white-cross flag of the Narva garrison.
Woodwork was initially coffee-colored as per garrison units. It may or may not have been re-painted straw-yellow. I would guess the change was made, to emphasize the change from garrison to regular service.

Great stuff!