"End of the Helicopter?" Topic

End of the Helicopter? (no) – MANPADS and helicopter losses in Ukraine, by Perun, July 24, 2022.

Perun uses a US OPFOR (opposition force) document to explain that some of the strange things Russian helicopters do is doctrine.

Watch out for a "misalignment between slides and audio towards the end of the presentation – one transition is missed so the slides are behind the audio."

In April Ukrainian and Russian helicopters were still straffing with cannon and rockets:
VIDEO from inside the cockpit of a Ukrainian Hind attack helicopter raging545, April 11, 2022.

See the OP at TMP link for a Russian helicopter shot down while strafing on June 17, 2022, and the following posts for doing that indirect fire thing with lofted S-13 122mm rockets instead.

An article from April: Ukraine is quietly using its Mi-24 'flying tank' helicopters to batter Russian forces, businessinsider

How would an A-10 do compared to helicopters in the current environment?

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

A-10s are faster, more rugged, so more survivable.

Getting thru the defense zone more quickly lessens their vulnerability.

They can take MANPAD hits and still get back home.

Still, the ultra-modern war zone is a very dangerous place.

Again, the Helicopter has to be used correctly in field ops, just like Infantry & Tanks. As we have seen Russian combat doctrine is marginal at best. So, if based on nothing but their performance in action … NO the helicopter is not dead … nor is the MBT/AFV. Oh again BTW … MGs didn't make Infantry obsolete. Again … Tactics must change with Tech …

Thresher +1 …

BTW, we[air ops guys] were trained to use a tactic called a JAAT[Joint Air Attack Tm]. The US Army Gunships[AH-1s or AH-64s later] would work in concert with A-10s to attrite and stem the tide of the USSR/WP armor, etc. As it tried to cross the IGB. Back during the Cold War.

I think this tactic may still work today. Gunships hover behind cover, e.g., trees, ridge line, structures, etc. Pop-up, fires at the enemy AFVs, etc. Goes back down, maybe move undercover to an alternate position.

As this is happening the A-10s swope in, make a gun run, fire some of its wing rack ordinance. Attriting the enemy forces. Pulls up …

Then the Gunships pop-up again – fires their ordinance …

Repeat the entire process again until all ordinance is close to 0 on both aircraft types …

Then bring in another wave, while the 1st wave goes back to rearm & refuel.

Continue …

Helicopters are very vulnerable, just as they were shortly after their introduction in the Vietnam War.

I forget the exact figure, but an average helicopter's life was measured in minutes, and I believe about 17 or so back then, during combat ops (between 15 and 20 minutes IIRC), and I imagine their pilots' lifespan wasn't much longer.

We lost thousands of those in Vietnam, like 5,000+, IIRC.

Ah, looked it up:

"Over the course of the war, some 12,000 helicopters of various kinds saw service in Vietnam. By the end of the war half of them had been lost. Five Thousand pilots and crews lost their lives and 3,258 Hueys (5,600+ US helos) alone were lost during the war".

A US Army help pilots avg. lifespan was 19 minutes:

link

One quote mentions the average lifespan of a helo doorgunner as 5 minutes, but another points out that is impossibly high, and that really it was about 2 weeks.

I suspect the discrepencies are due to total time in country as opposed to the amount of time being flown on combat ops. Regardless, it was very high, just like for the pilots.

So, high helo losses during war are really nothing new.

I recall going on a tour as a young boyscout and talking to a helo pilot. He said that a small bullet dent in the main rotor blade the size of a quarter would be enough to bring the craft down, since it would make the rotor blades unstable.

Imagine what a LMG or fast-firing AA gun could do to a helo's rotor blades.

I also recall an Afghan farmer being credited with downing an AH-64 with a shot from his ancient hunting rifle, so……

The AH-64 is/was designed to take hits from 23mm AA guns and survive, but it you hit it in just the right spot with even a hunting rifle it is coming down.

Pop up attacks for gunships.

Instead of direct air assaults for transports drop the infantry off a a mile or two away and have them proceed on foot.

I wonder what counter measures to manpads are being developed by companies like Raytheon.

Dragon +10 …

Helicopters are very vulnerable

In Vietnam they used assault ships, e.g. UH1s, etc., like in a WWII beach landings. Even if they prepped the LZ. And had Gunships running security. This was a forced entry op. We generally don't do those anymore. As Dragon pointed you don't land on top of the enemy. As opposed to what GEN Gavin said about WWII Paratroops. Tactics must evolve with Tech.

We learned … As my one fellow LT in the 101 said, "Don't put a helicopter where you wouldn't put a truck".

As I had mentioned before … Helicopters have to use tactics & techniques just like everything else does in a conflict. E.g. Terrain Masking, flying Contour and NOE. Plus SEADS …

Helicopters aren't going anywhere.

👍👍

Next piece of FOMB some clownshoe pulls off a fake news site and shoves in everyone's faces: End of the Infantryman? Given how easily they can be taken out whilst on leave just by letting them pose for a picture at the seaside with a little octopus on their shoulder, they should have been gone decades ago.

ANYTHING can get taken out somehow. That doesn't miraculously allow us to do without it.

FOMB –
Financial Oversight and Management Board
Friends of Montmorency Bushlands
Friends of Misery Bay (Ontario, Canada)
Fiscal Oversight and Management Board
Festifal Open Marching Band … ?

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Faeces of Male Bovine.

ANYTHING can get taken out somehow. That doesn't miraculously allow us to do without it.

Bingo !