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"Sell Me on Across A Deadly Field" Topic


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OldReliable186214 Jul 2022 10:44 a.m. PST

As I continue my search for the Grail of Big Battle ACW rules, I'm tempted to try the late John Hill's Across A Deadly Field. I've also considered JR3, but from what I can tell that ruleset is geared more toward corps-sized battles instead of multiple corps battles, but I'll likely try it out as well at some point.

Opinion on AADF seems pretty mixed: some hate it, some are disappointed, and a few seem to like it. My goal here is for those who like AADF to help sell me on these rules, and hopefully get the most out of them.

A fair bit of criticism has been levelled at the layout of the rules, with the charts being scattered throughout. That seems off-putting, but I can probably make my own reference sheet in Microsoft Word or a similar program.

Personal logo KimRYoung Supporting Member of TMP14 Jul 2022 12:46 p.m. PST

For Big Battles you're better of with Brigade Fire and Fury.

Kim

OldReliable186214 Jul 2022 1:01 p.m. PST

I'd certainly considered Brigade Fire & Fury, but it seems the ruleset is similar to JR3 in that it's more at home with corps-sized battles.

Father of Cats Supporting Member of TMP14 Jul 2022 1:09 p.m. PST

Altar of Freedom ?

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Jul 2022 1:36 p.m. PST

Not reviews per se, but I've written detailed summaries of a good number of ACW rule sets here:

link

Honestly, AADF struck me as JR3 but with a change in ground scale…

shadoe0114 Jul 2022 3:12 p.m. PST

Hi OldReliable1862,

Just going out for the evening, but tomorrow I'll try to address your request instead of different one – say one like "suggest an alternative rule set to AADF". LoL

AADF certainly owes something to JR3 but it has some significant differences. That is why some players have reto-fitted AADF to the scale of JR3.

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP14 Jul 2022 11:26 p.m. PST

Played JR2, then JR3 for many years. Then one game, nobody could remember the charge sequence and how it worked. We all just blanked on it. That's when we decided we were done with JR.

It wasn't only the complicated charge sequence but it was mostly the basing system. The basing is like no other game I know. It forces you to have all these different size bases and number of figures all to keep a five base frontage. Which is not historical and actually caused more paper work. Try painting a particular uniformed regiment when you need a dozen versions of it.

So we looked for a different set. We were committed to the regimental unit scale. So no F&F. RF&F has too large of units and is just F&F rescaled. Had bad experiences with F&F. So I suggested "Mr. Lincoln's War" it fit our two criteria, regimental and simple. Did we have to modify it some? Yes we did. But very little. We have fought small brigade size battles and large corps size games with it.

link

There is a second edition coming out soon.

link

Don't try to find a holy grail. You won't find it. At best you can write your own or modify an existing set of rules to your taste. You will spend all your time searching, than actually gaming. Don't let the good be the enemy of the perfect.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2022 4:24 a.m. PST

I suspect you'll find the major problem is that ADF is geared for existing JR armies. Some people love the system. Some hate it. But no one else uses it, so if you base for ADF/JR, you're locked in.

Positive, Robert: be positive. JR3 is a well-loved set by a respected game designer, and with that and ADF, you'll be able to play a very wide range of ACW battles with the same figures. It wasn't the solution I chose, but it's a perfectly workable one.

shadoe0115 Jul 2022 7:14 a.m. PST

Hi OldReliable1862,

Trying to sell something to someone not knowing their requirements is a mug's game, but I will address your request on the basis of "features of ADF that might be of interest".

1) The game turn sequence of ADF. While computer war simulations have the option of advancing time either by discrete time steps (even if these are notional and/or variable duration) or by a sequence of events, table top miniatures are primarily discrete time steps. I can't think of any table top rules set that's purely event-based. Although some rules have a sequence of unit activation within a turn these aren't pure event-based as these "unit activation events' sit within the context of a turn.

The next major categorization is whether turns are simultaneous or I-Go-U-Go.

ADF uses I-Go-U-Go whereas previous JR rules were simultaneous. Within an active players turn each unit has two actions it can perform in any order (i.e., it could move twice, fire twice, move and fire, fire and move, fire and charge, move and charge, etc.); although some actions like charging can be done only once.

The passive player is allowed to react depending on whether or not an opposing player's unit (or unit group) moves a minimal amount or fires within line-of-sight or does something within a short distance of a reacting unit. Reactions are things like defensive fire, formation changes, rallying, counter-charging, etc. However, other than a "desperation fire" when charged each passive player's unit may react only once during the active player's turn.

The result of this is a lot of complexity with interactions. Do you withhold defensive fire in case the active player does something more dangerous later on. As an active player how should you sequence the activation of units and what actions should they take in what order. Mastering this will take a few games but some might find the complexity intriguing. So, it's still a time-stepped, I-Go-U-Go turn sequence but with enough ability to rearrange actions or interrupt an enemy's actions that it incorporates a little bit of "event-based" simulation. The down side is a turn can take a long time as it progresses through unit/unit group activations and enemy reactions.

One thing I've realized with ADF is to be careful with table top terrain. Most table top games probably allow units to have too much line-of-sight since slight dips, small bits of terrain, etc. that block line-of-sight are missing. Bringing units up under cover is a big thing in ADF. If your table doesn't have enough terrain units will be blown apart by deployed enemy batteries before as they deploy.

2) Activation isn't random. Random activation can be purely random (i.e., a unit has fixed probability of activation) or a player may have an ability to increase a unit's probability of activation through command effort. In ADF activation is automatic. Some prefer this but some prefer the random activation.

3) ADF allows players to move individual regiments or batteries but a player will be more successful to think in terms of brigades or artillery battalions. Typically in a game where a unit is an infantry brigade there's no depiction of individual regiments. ADF is intended for those players who want to play a "brigade unit" game but still see how an individual unit (e.g., 20th Maine on Little Round Top) does. This means more complexity with ADF – with the additional risk of a player getting into trouble by micro-managing individual regiments.

4) ADF can be and has been adapted to the JR regimental scale (by JR players who like the ADF game mechanics). So, if one wants to play a game where units are regiments instead of brigades it works quite well.

5) Basing – ADF counts figures and in the rules illustrates things using the JR basing system. The author says the rules are basing agnostic but does confuse the reader enough to think they aren't. The answer is, "it depends", which I think is true for all rules. They key is whether your army basing is compatible with that used by opponents. My figures are based on JR but I don't feel that this prevents me from playing F&F, Pickett's Charge, etc., but I play solo games so I never have a compatibility problem.

Conversely, I'd be happy to use other basing systems with JR or ADF, but with the provision that I'm not trying to represent precisely a given unit's strength for a given battle. For example, if your army's figures are based 4-to-a-base then your regiments in ADF would be 240, 480 or 720 for 1-3 of your bases (i.e., each base would be 4 X 60 = 240 troops). You'd also have to convert the tables to account for the basing as ADF uses number of bases lost for modifiers (i.e., instead of 1 of 2 bases lost would be 50% lost).

6) ADF's combat resolution system is similar to the JR rules mechanisms. So if you familiar with the JR mechanics you'll find it fairly easy to adapt to ADF.

7) ADF counts figures for combat power and attrition. That is what it is – like it or not.

So, there are some features of ADF which may be of interest to a player. My approach to rules are like ice cream flavours. I like to try different flavours but there are some I avoid. With respect to ADF, I like the interesting game turn sequence – varied unit actions and reactions plus I-Go-U-Go works well for solo play but it's not my go to for a quick fun game. My issue is more that I play games from the times of ancient Babylon to WWII, so I haven't played ACW in a while.

Still, when it comes to game rules it's horses for courses.

Personal logo KimRYoung Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2022 9:31 a.m. PST

Old Reliable – Another option for large battles would be Volley and Bayonet.


Old Contemptible – Your Link for Mr. Lincolns War looks like the original rules. What info do you have for the second edition?

For what its worth, I played Johnny Reb with John Hill before it was ever published (and still have a copy of those rules). I was put off by the mounting also, and did my own rules with 3 figures to a base. That was more than 10 years before the original Fire and Fury!

Kim

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2022 12:49 p.m. PST

The author told me they were working on the 2nd edition but no publication date. I would not let that keep you from trying the rules. It could be a while. I know I said soon but I misspoke. I am not exactly sure when.

OldReliable186215 Jul 2022 1:44 p.m. PST

Hi Old Contemptible – I hadn't considered Mr. Lincoln's War a good ruleset for Gettysburg-sized battles, as it's advertised as a regimental-level ruleset.

PJ ONeill15 Jul 2022 4:21 p.m. PST

For AADF, trying to use the charts in the rulebook will leave you scratching your head in confusion, the publisher did a lousy job in chopping a quick reference sheet into bits and pieces.
The charts, for 10, 15 and 25mm are available, the way they were originally constructed, here:
acrossadeadlyfield.com
In my opinion, AADF is more complicated than JR3, for almost the same level of simulation.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2022 5:16 p.m. PST

OldReliable, if you base for Mr Lincoln's Army, which is stand=100 infantry you're also good for On to Richmond and Touched with Fire which are stand=300 and 1st edition F&F which is in between. (Not sure about 2nd. I have rarely been as upset with a rulesmith as I was when F&F Regimental came out and messed with four man bases. Haven't revisited F&F since.) That said, even stand=300 and 15mm means a lot of bases and a fair-size table for Gettysburg.

May I suggest a different process? Pick the biggest historical battle you want to fight and look at what size table you can keep up, and how many regular players you can expect. The table gives you a limit on ground scale. The number of players tells you how much you need each of them to command. Once you know those numbers, your list of rules to choose from will be seriously reduced.

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2022 6:02 p.m. PST

"Hi Old Contemptible – I hadn't considered Mr. Lincoln's War a good ruleset for Gettysburg-sized battles, as it's advertised as a regimental-level ruleset."


I have a sizable collection of ACW regimental scenario books. I usually use them for a starting point, use my knowledge of the period (history degree) and research the battle and the units involved. I factor in the rules, how to make them work for this battle and the number of players.

I am fortunate to have a good size game room. I can do just about any size battle at the regimental level. The only limitation I have is the arm length of the players. I can also leave games up to play on multiple days, which we have done several times.

link

I have been playing and running games since the late 1980s. Started out with the old "Rally Round the Flag" rules. So I have a lot of experience to draw upon. I remain committed to the regimental unit level. IMO that is how the ACW should be played. Brigade games just do not feel like the ACW to me. That's just my opinion, others disagree.

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2022 11:58 p.m. PST

Rules should not limit the size of the game nor what you command. MLW works for large games. When I use to use JR2 we did the Battle of Antietam. The only part we couldn't fit on the table was the Sunken Road.

You can do the same with MLW. One of the authors of the rules has played the 2nd day of Gettysburg. The only limiting factor is the size of gaming space, number of figures, number of players and time. I never let a set of rules limit the size of my command. I know what I can handle.

Personal logo KimRYoung Supporting Member of TMP16 Jul 2022 9:10 a.m. PST

That said, even stand=300 and 15mm means a lot of bases and a fair-size table for Gettysburg.

Not really. I have fought the entire 3 days of Gettysburg at home at that scale using my own rules and did it with only two players! Did it in a single day.

Old Contemptible – When you say 2nd Day Gettysburg, you probably only mean Longstreet's Attack. Most don't include the attacks on Cemetery Hill and Culps Hill late on the 2nd.

Kim

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