"How did batteries look in depth?" Topic

I am experimenting with 3mm figures and I would like to know how a battery and its equipment would appear in depth. What is behind the gun and crew, and in what order and distance? Is the limber directly behind the gun, or is it the caisson? Does everything remain hitched? Do the horse teams face the guns, or away from them?

If there is significant variation by country, I am interested in 1809 Austrians at the moment.

My searches haven't been enlightening. Thanks for the help.

I do not have the exact information on the Austrians, but as a rule of thumb, the depth of a battery was, on average, as follows:

If there was a ammunition box on the gun then it was placed with the gun but only used in an emergency.

The limbers and horse teams would be about 10 yards behind the gun line with the horses facing to the rear.

30 to 50 yards behind them would be the first line of caissons or ammunition wagons. This is where the ammunition would be drawn from first.

30 to 50 yards behind them would be the second line of caissons if there was one.

30 to 50 yards behind that would be the support vehicles etc.

It is not exact and others may have the Austrian information you require.

Hollins' Vanguard 072 on Austrian artillery has some information that might be useful. He notes that most ammunition was kept in the (faster) two wheeled wagons.

Cheers
John

Artillerymen info looks good but I thought the second train line was further to rear by 100-300 yards, hopefully behind a terrain ground fold or something. Otherwise the same roundshot or shell aimed at the forward cannon would still place the second train line under fire… assuming even ground. I read once(?) that the immediate ammo supply train line was half for the required ammo trains and battery needs, the other half maybe parked with the second train line, exchanged quickly as the first half wagons are drawn down, as this reduces by half the standing still ammo wagons near the actual battery. Movement of ammo trains back and forth was a constant flow when the battery was in action. Remember Valmy 1792 for what ammo trains can do if lit off. The third line (support wagons and extra ammo) even further back, well out of roundshot or shell range.

Joe,

I can't speak for Napoleonics, but in the ACW from the front of the piece, the limber team facing forward behind it and the caissons behind the limber team also facing forward, took up less then 50 yards. Around 5 yards between each, everything remained hitched.

You'll have to get the Naps experts for 1809, but I would imagine different nations had somewhat different doctrines, and that ACW doctrine had roots in Napoleonic era, probably based on the British doctrine.

Kim

In general, a battery's depth is going to be greater than its front.

The placing of the caissons/ammunition wagons could vary according to tactical requirements. If a dip offered some protection, the distances could vary to take advantage. The vehicles I describe were organic to the battery where access to ammunition could trump other considerations. (There are many illustrations showing this closeness and the resultant possible carnage.) The coming and going of the other supporting vehicles is well described above.

Une batterie d'artillerie française à pied

L'empreinte au sol d'une batterie en position correspond au calibre des pièces qui l'équipent.

En effet, si les pièces de 4, 6 et 8 livres sont accompagnées de deux caissons à munition chacune, les pièces de 12 et les obusiers disposent quant à eux de 3 caissons chacun.

.Immédiatement derrière les pièces, on trouve les avants trains (car l'artillerie française combat « attelée " contrairement à l'artillerie britannique qui combat « dételée » et renvoie ses avant-trains en arrière une fois les pièces déposées.
- Une première ligne de caissons (1 par pièce) est alignée 50 mètres en arrière de la ligne de batterie
- Une seconde ligne de caissons 50 mètres plus loin
- Une troisième ligne (pour les pièces de 12 livres et les obusiers) 50 mètres plus loin
- Une dernière ligne regroupe le reste du charroi* 100 mètres plus loin.

* j'entends par charroi, les deux affûts de rechange, les deux forges, les caissons d'outils et de munitions d'infanterie qui dans le cas de pièces de 4, 6 et 8 livres sont alors rejoint par les troisièmes caissons des obusiers.

Weapons & equipement of the napoleonic wars de Philip Haythornthwaite Blandford press p.78
Officiers et soldats de l'artillerie et le système Gribeauval tome 2 de Ludivic Letrun et Jean-Marie Mongin chez Histoire & Collections P. 80

Thanks all. That gives me something to work with.

On the topic of 3mm artillery, is the only maker of 3mm figs, Pico? And if so what are the actual dimensions of their arty pieces – are they sold as single cannon or multiple per casting?

With all the impedimenta of the battery behind the gun line was it practical for an infantry or indeed cavalry unit to move through the battery? Empire allows Cavalry to charge and not be disordered if they start their movement 2" or less behind the battery. Can this be logical/historically accurate?

The artillery is a single piece and it is cast on to a base. It is about 1/8" wide x 2/8" deep.

"Can this be logical/historically accurate?"
Short answer : yes, it can be.

Explanation ….

We assume the cavalry is formed in some closed order – not Cossacks or light cavalry in a skirmish order.
We assume the cavalry are really going through the artillery position, not around iit (no matter how it looks with the models/bases/etc. on the table)

It can be done if ….
--- the artillery pieces are deployed, as was typical, with at least 10m between pieces to allow for the limbers to pass and/or turn around
--- the cavalry has space/time to adopt columns of three (files) before entering the artillery [osition and space/time to regain their prior formation on the other side.

Example :
A Russian squadron is formed in 2 ranks and 60 files.
The squadron wishes to pass through a 12-gun deployed artillery company with 6 pieces "up" and 4 on refused flanks or in reserve – there are 7 lanes going forward each at least 10m wide.
The 60 files break off into their 4 platoons in columns of three, each of 10 ranks. They pass the battery in 4 of the 7 lanes , and reform.
The same technique is used when encountering restricted terrain, entering a road, etc. – so it is not unusual at all.

If we are in a tactical game where all activity of a unit is timed/regulated/expended in the duration of a turn, the above conversion might use of 50%-67% of the cavalry's movement allowance, depending on turn length. It should count as 2 "major" formation changes. During this passage of horsemen, the artillery probably should not be allowed any action. Any shooting at either the guns or the horsemen should likely effect both. The cavary should lose any "charge zone" they might be able to project for a period of time – e.g. through the next enemy movement phase,

If there are rules for it and the terrain/weather so allow, the cavalry – in addition to ending up in front of the gunners – will have kicked up a hellish dust cloud all over the artillery position.

In the French artillery, although each field piece had a number of caissons assigned to each piece, there would only be one that would accompany the gun company in the field and into combat.

The others, along with the ancillary vehicles assigned to the company, such as the field forge, would be with the parcs, not the gun company.

That being the case, the company would be width would be greater than depth in the firing position.

Further, the coffret would be removed from the gun trails and placed on the limber. That ammunition would be used to feed the piece, and it would be replenished from the assigned caisson.

According to Otto von Pikka, who is Austrian, deployment of ammunition wagon occurred in two halves: one with the limbers (if these had no ammunition chest), i.e. 25-50 paces behind the guns and to one side and the rest a few hundred paces to the rear in a place covered from enemy fire. If the limbers had ammunition chests, all the ammunition wagons would be to the rear.
When half the limbers were empty they would gallop back to the ammunition wagons, refill and return to a position behind the guns. The wagons were to be 25-50 paces apart to minimise the danger of fire and explosion spreading from one to another.

Otto von Pikka, who is Austrian

he really isn't

link

@ Michman

Just one small disagreement; I spent quite a bit of time discussing how fast a horse can reach a gallop with a group of riders. The answer ,as you can see if you watch the start of a race out of stalls is very fast, 1-3 strides, so even if your cavalry charge is at the gallop, and I've read a few things that suggest that a good round trot is actually the option in many armies/units; then once they are through the guns they don't need much space. The bigger impediment may be the time to get the files who have dropped back into the ranks.

@ Artilleryman

If the box on the gun is only for emergencies then the cartridge-man is walking ~100 yards for every round fired; so there would need to be a few of them keeping up a running conveyor and a decent rate of fire.

As already noted, in the French artillery arm, the coffret (ammunition box) on the trails was placed on the limber during action and that was refilled from the caisson belonging to that piece.

There is a diagram in the Waterloo Companion which supposedly depicts the French Grande Batterie deployment on page 294 is incorrect.

The position of overcrowded and the French did not have three lines of caissons behind the battery. There would be only one.

If that many caissons were with the gun companies, there would be too much congestion and confusion and the French artillery resupply system would not function properly.