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"Uniforms of Russian gunners." Topic


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597 hits since 17 Jun 2022
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Comments or corrections?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP17 Jun 2022 10:43 p.m. PST

Hello everyone,

The russian helmeted artillerymen are artillerymen of the horse battery of before 1812?

And their helmets are those of the russian cuirassiers?

What are their uniformological changes between 1805 and 1812 ?

Thank you.

RittervonBek18 Jun 2022 1:17 a.m. PST

Have a look here. link

Michman18 Jun 2022 3:02 a.m. PST

And here, as background for the details from Mr. Gingerich linked above ….

link

link

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP18 Jun 2022 3:49 a.m. PST

Thank you. It's good links, but we are not more advanced.

Personal logo Dye4minis Supporting Member of TMP18 Jun 2022 12:48 p.m. PST

Michman: Those two links are a wonderful resource! Thanks for sharing!

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP22 Jun 2022 1:40 a.m. PST

@ RittervonBek and Michman :

Here is what I want to know:

The helmet was introduced in 1803, with the plume modified in 1808. The helmet was replaced by a shako in 1814.

This helmet was the same as for the cuirassiers.

And December 2, 1806 /

These same ranks are ordered to cut their hair short; however, generals and field and company officers were authorized in this regard to proceed according to their personal wishes.

Michman22 Jun 2022 4:55 a.m. PST

@Paskal

In addition ….

December 1803, "Officers, including generals, kept the uniforms they had received on 27 March 1802 and 18 October 1803. In formation, when wearing sashes, they wore the helmets established on 18 October 1803, with a hair creast (white towards the top, black towards the bottom, with an orange strip in between) (Illus. 1660), and during other times hats with a white plume and a gold button loop of narrow galloon. (Illus. 1660) ."

November 1808 For all Horse-Artillery companies a new style of crest [plyumazh] was prescribed for their helmets, like that confirmed at this time for Cuirassier regiments. Officers were prescribed to have these crests only when on campaign, and the rest of the time to wear the previous thick style established 18 October 1803 (Illus. 1666).

And in 1809 "the powdering of the hair was completely discontinued for officers …. Also, plumes on their hats were shortened."

February 1812 "The thick [gustoi] style of crest on officers' helmets was completely abolished, leaving only the flat [ploskii] style." (Illus. 1669).

====================

To see the Illustrations noted above and in Mr. Conrad's translation :
Go to : prlib.ru/item/416661
Where it says "Страница" , put in 125 and hit "Enter"
You should see Illustration number 1655.
Scroll down for the following illustrations.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP22 Jun 2022 10:08 p.m. PST

Thank you but there is not currently on sale a modern book with many illustrations on the Russian army between 1805 and 1814?

Michman23 Jun 2022 1:02 a.m. PST

For "Modern" I would take your meaning as "post-Soviet". Assuming this is your idea ….

In English ?

I do not know, except Mr. Conrad's translation of the Viskovatov, and Mr. Gingerich's web-site, both linked above, and both very highly reccommended. If you *carefully* followed the Viskovatov as corrected by Mr. Gingerich where applicable, you will be very close to the correct uniforms in parade dress.

I linked the Viskovatov illustrations – and you can color them easily. This has been quite commonly done since they were published over 150 years ago, and Google image search can often find web-sites showing colored versions.

So, not "on sale", but instead free and available and in English and quite good.

===========================

In Russian ?

The following are quite good, but I have no idea if they are "currently on sale", especially given the current international situation.

Безотосный, Васильев, Горшман, Смирнов & Пархаев (илл.)
Русская Армия 1812-1814 гг.
Москва : Издательство ВЛАДОС, 2000

Леонов, Попов & Кибовский
Русский военный костюм. Армия Александра I. пехота, артиллерия, инженеры
Москва : Издательство Фонд Русские Витязи, 2013
Русский военный костюм. Армия Александра I. кавалерия
Москва : Издательство Фонд Русские Витязи, 2014

Смирнов
Аракчеевская артиллерия
Москва : Издательство Рейтар, 1998

Ульянов
Регулярная пехота 1801-1855 гг.
Москва : Издательство АСТ, 1997
1812 – Русская Пехота в Бою
Москва : Издательство Эксмо, 2008

If you care to take the risk of the Russian internet, torrent depositories and so on (I do *not* reccommend this), you can likely find these works online for free. Your private, non-commercial, academic or "for {Russian] national or social benefit" use of the works would be *legal* in Russia. Your using the books to design figures for sale, or the use of the illustrations in your book offered for sale, would not be allowed.

However, your unauthorized downloading through or into the USA, UK or EU (which creates a *copy* of all or substative part of the work) and/or your unauthorized use of the work in these regions would be in violation of copyright protection laws. By treaty, each nation applies *its own* copyright protections to foreign works, not the protection of the original country. A little ironic, is it not?

Also, your use of an interet connection/servers/etc. from the USA/UK/EU into and out of Russia might violate sanctions of either side, depending on the companies involved.

Trockledockle23 Jun 2022 2:40 a.m. PST

Does this help although it is old and may violate copyright?

link

Trockledockle23 Jun 2022 2:51 a.m. PST

The work of Messrs Gingrich and Conrad is excellent and I recommend them for in-depth reading.

Other books worth considering are:

Ospreys
Men at Arms 185 Infantry and 189 Cavalry Haythornthwaite
Warrior 151 Russian Grenadiers and Infantry Spring

Uniforms of 1812 Haythornthwaite

Armies of 1812 Digby Smith

I suspect that most of their information is from Viskovatov or earlier and some has been overtaken by later work mentioned above but they are a good introduction and cover enough for most wargaming purposes.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP24 Jun 2022 6:15 a.m. PST

Thank you Michman and Trockledockle.

I am looking for documentation in English or
even in French which I know quite well.

While we're at it besides the crests of helmets, what differences between the uniforms of Russian dragoons and cuirassiers of 1805 and those of 1812?

I need russian uhlans from before and after 1807, what other russian army uniforms are most similar to those of russian uhlans?

Michman24 Jun 2022 8:36 a.m. PST

"russian army uniforms are most similar to those of russian uhlans"
Maybe Potemkin era uniforms from the riegn of Catherine for the jackets?
The ulan uniform (kurtka jacket, czapka casque, belly band, trousers laced at the calf, etc.) was traditionally Polish, not Russian.

In English you can't do better than the Vikovatov, as "corrected" by Mr. Gingerich.
Army cuirassiers
link
Army dragoons
link
Army ulans
link
Guards cavalry
link

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP24 Jun 2022 10:12 a.m. PST

@ Michman:

Thanks for the links.

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