"French Uniforms in Waterloo question." Topic

Hi, sorry guys not an expert in the Napoleonic period. I bought the Black Powder 2nd edition Waterloo box (28mm). I already painted the British in what seems to be normal obvious colors.

Now I am about to start painting the French infantry, and they all have these coats in different colors as shown in the box and rulebook but they do not look like the "traditional" blue uniform shown in movies and documentaries. Why is this?

I believe it is because they are wearing overcoats. The various shades of brown and grey are probably accurate.

The French are in overcoats. It's a quick way to get a lot of figures done because most of the uniform is covered up. If you want blue-clad Frenchmen, you need something like this:

link

By the end of the Napoleonic Wars, French infantry spent a great deal of time in their greatcoats. These were worn over the "traditional" blue uniform to protect it or just over the waistcoat. It was more comfortable and the expensive uniform was protected. Colours varied from grey through various shades of brown and biege. The Guard's coats were blue.

I rather think that Warlord Games are in error if they are selling French troops in greatcoats as the norm at Waterloo. The Emperor was in personal command, as at Borodino where supply problems were far greater: full dress was worn to the extent that it was available.

Given that Waterloo was in June when as I recall the average temperature is about 23C (74 F give or take) the French certainly didn't need greatcoats for warmth! It did rain heavily so maybe some wore greatcoats but I agree probably not too many

I have to admit this is a bit of a bugbear for me. The Allied army troops also had greatcoats – but no one suggests or sculpts them wearing theirs. Does the sun and rain not fall on the same battlefield? The rain had well and truly stopped by the time the battle kicked off – the humidity and activity required of the French soldiery in particular would have made for warm work. I'm with Regi and Frederick on this. I bought a brigade's worth of French from Front Rank (do we call them Gripping Beast now?) just to avoid the greatcoats. I also have an aversion to marching poses (in part) – I like my battalions to advance with intent. Can't deny it though … the Perry's are always very nice.

French units threw away their uniform coats on the advance into Russia and replaced it with the great coat. Those great coates were not heavy woolen type of stuff but thinner than usually imagined.

1812
« Le 48e avait un habillement neuf et très soigné à l'entrée en campagne. Dans les plaines de la Lithuanien, le soldat, excédée chaleur, jeta la majeure partie de cet habillement, ne conservant que la capote, et le pantalon de toile. It avait à Wilna une réserve d'habilement, dont une faible part fut distribuée, et le reste laissée dans la ville. »
Fußnote, S. 489
Le Spectateur Militaire, volume XXIX, 15e année, Paris, 1840, S.481 – 493, Campagne de Russie, Rapport Historique du 48e Régiment d'infanterie de Ligne, remis au général Comte Ricard, Commandant la 2e Division du 1er Corps

@ von Winterfeldt

Your source is very interesting (many thanks), but identifies the behaviour of the 48th Line as unusual and due largely to the heat on entering Lithuania. It suggests that until a depot was established at Vilna, most of the 48th marched in trousers and what in English we might call a raincoat. I am not sure it supports a general rule that the Grande Armee advanced on Moscow largely in underwear.

The British indeed did have a greatcoat and a fine looking garment is was. But it is well documented that all infantry were required to turn them in, as unnecessary, in the weeks before June 1815.

It never rains in Belgium in June (Bit like the song and It never Rains in Southern California).

If they had anything on top of those backpacks (Trotter or not) they were rolled up grey blankets (and grey was spelt with an E back then, and over here still is….well leave it at that…)

They did not adavance in underwear, campaign overals were common and not only in the French army, as well over that a great coat, my point was just – our today thinking might not apply to them, I would for example have imagined they did just wear their waist coats – but then again, why would you carry all your uniforms, when the campaign should last only for some few months? You would carry the absolute minimum and threw away the rest, this was a common trait in the French army.

Blaze
« The day after the first bivouac of a campaign saw an enormous quantity of breeches ; black and white gaiters, collars ; and stockings which littered the ground where we had slept – making it look as if the enemy had surprised us during the night, and we had fled clad only in our shirts.(…) Formerly the soldiers was issued a pair of breeches free, and seldom wore them; he had to pay for a pair of trousers which he wore all the time. (…) But at the first bivouac at the start of a campaign, everyone emptied his pack of everything but the bare essentials, discarding everything else."
Page 34
Military Life Under Napoléon by Elzéar Blaze, translations and notes by John Elting, Emperor's Press, Chicago, 1995

P.L. –Mayer
« Un autre jour, je vois tout plein de culottes blanches sur la route et m'informe d'où celà provenait. On me dit que bientôt nous allions trouver l'ennemie et que les soldats jettaient leurs culottes pour avoir plus de place dans leur sac pour mettre ces vivres. Moi qui voulait faire ces crâne.je me mets en devoir de faire come eux. Mais au bout de deux jours le capitaine qui me gardait un chien de sa chienne m'ordonne de ouvrir mon sac et me demandait où était mon culotte, je lui dis que j'avais fait comme les vieux soldats.»
p.315
P.- L. Mayer : Mémoires Inédites d'un Soldat Prisonnier en Russie (35e de Ligne)
Soldats Suisse au Servie Etranger, Genève 1908, p 241

Honestly I cannot see anything unusual in 48e de ligne.

I know many Soldiers even today, if not inspected by their First Sergeant, will drop gear. (Usually non accountable stuff)

In Ranger school I buried a can of shaving cream, when I realized I could lather the bar of soap and save 12 ounces.

I am not suggesting that they carried their entire uniforms. They marched in marching dress (no surprise), which in heat probably did consist of a light, loose-fitting coat, trousers and not much else. Nobody wore a shako and waist-coats were probably seen far less than undershirts. Every company had a wagon or two that carried all the stuff these sources say was 'discarded'. At Borodino the French arrayed in full dress, consisting of all the stuff these sources say barely crossed the Oder. How on earth did it all get there? Were the ladies of Paris busy knocking up various sizes of military equipage from about 1790 – there were after all 350,000 soldiers in French pay – just to replace what these sources say was left in a bivouac?

I am not sure the invasion of Russia was conducted in such an amateur way. If it was, then we know why Napoleon failed.

But they did not fight in full dress at Borodino, because a lot units had thrown that away, Lejeune shows a huge amount of French soldiers in great coats.

Would they have carried their shakos – I would say yes, there was no light fitting loose coat, in case you like to refer to such an item, it was the great coat, even a waist coat, according to fashion, had a tight fit.

To my view it would be wrong to see French line infantry with white breeches and white gaiters, white waist coats and their dark blue uniform coats, shakos adorned with plumes, cords and tassels.

Let's agree to slightly disagree, in friendship. I believe that Borodino was fought in as 'full dress' as practically possible, because the Emperor was in personal command. This certainly did not equate to 'parade dress' in peace-time in Paris (what was called 'bull parade' in the British army); but greater effort was made than turning up in l'ordre de marche. Typical temperature in Moscow in early September is 15 degrees C; so greatcoats would hardly be called for. At Waterloo – which was the OP's concern – supply problems certainly ought not to have been so great. To return to the OP and the comment of 'Unlucky General' above, I think that the only reason a manufacturer would pretend that French infantry at Waterloo wore greatcoats is to appeal to sections of the hobby who are put off Napoleonics by the intricacies of painting uniforms. I suggest that it is a commercial con.

Even at Belle Alliance the Old Guard fought in great coats.

I have no problems in case of disagreement, and yes some units may well be in better outfit than just great coats and be in uniform coat and overalss.

48 de ligne chose the great coat in the greatest heat when in the advance of Russia, underneath likely only a shirt, much more comforatable than a thight fitting uniform coat.

Greatcoats then were not of that ultra heavy stuff of today.

Paul Dawson reckons shirts were considered underwear and never on show. If you look at portraits of the era and of course at official uniforms, there is indeed nowhere a shirt can peek out.

Troops on the march aren't portrait sitters of course.