"Conflict is ‘demoralising’ Ukrainian forces" Topic

williamb, most recently Russia was accused of not allowing ships with grain to leave Ukrainian ports. When Russia agreed to this, they did not like it again. The conclusion is not the desire to solve the problem, this is the desire to once again blame Russia for something ;-)

"Ukrainian grain crisis: Turkey says the lifting of Russia sanctions 'legitimate' in Lavrov visit.
Russia is asking for sanctions to be lifted before allowing grain exports from blockaded Ukrainian ports. Ukraine insists it will not demine the port." lemonde, 8 June.

Has Russia changed its position on wanting sanctions to be lifted before allowing grain exports?

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As Axios is not very accurate in its reporting/translation, did Arahamiya actually say 'up to 1,000 Ukrainians killed and wounded every day'? This would fit with his role to have Russia recognized as a sponsor of terrorism.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

The russian government was rightly criticised for preventing the outward shipment of Ukrainian grain by the Ukrainans. The russian government was later equally rightly criticised for stealing Ukrainian grain and shipping it out themselves- and profiting from their act of theft. The double standard is a russian one- but that's not exactly a revelation.

Cuprum2, after all the lies the Russian government has told its people and the world about its invasion of Ukraine why would Ukraine believe that Russia would allow free passage and not seize the grain ships? Also as Druzhina stated Russia demanded that the sanctions be lifted prior to allowing the grain ships to depart.

Here is some recent reporting on Ukrainian morale:

youtu.be/V7PBnwwijVc

Morale is covered in the first 30 minutes or so. In brief, the embedded reporter insists that morale is surprisingly high and the soldiers involved have settled into the long haul.

That doesn't mean low morale doesn't exist… War is by definition demoralizing. Many of the Ukrainian soldiers on the frontline barely qualify as militia (speaking of the TDF battalions particularly) and most of their daily routine is sitting in a muddy trench getting subjected to thermobaric barrages that collapse your lungs. None of that is fun and these are mostly non-professional soldiers with no real preparation for these stressors. That said, morale doesn't seem to be a widespread problem on the Ukrainian side.

Good intel AM …

Russian Forces Are Hitting Eastern Ukraine With an Estimated 60,000 Shells Per Day

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Armand

Statement by Deputy Prime Minister Viktoriya Abramchenko in an interview on June 15:

"— The world grain market is about 800 million tons, and 20 million tons of Ukrainian grain in this volume is an insignificant indicator. We do not prevent the export of grain from the territory of Ukraine, from any part of it, including from the territory where temporary administrations work. We do not interfere in this process. Today, this grain is exported by road and by rail — we see these corridors of grain carriers and trucks that go to Europe. Ukrainian grain can be exported, there would be a desire.

As for the port of Odessa, the water area of which is mined by the Ukrainian authorities and where several ships have been flooded that interfere with free navigation, Russia has nothing to do with this. Ukraine can clear mines the port of Odessa and freely export food from there, including grain. As for the direction of Melitopol and Berdyansk, the President said that grain can also be exported from these cities, and the necessary assistance and assistance will be provided from our side. Food is being shipped from the Crimean ports — Kerch, Sevastopol — quite calmly."

All interviews:
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17/06/22 Vladimir Putin: "Russia does not interfere with the supply of food from Ukraine. We didn't mine the Black Sea ports of Ukraine. There are 5-6 options for exporting Ukrainian grain. Let the Kiev authorities decide for themselves how to do this, without focusing on their masters from across the ocean."

So, according to the president, Ukraine can clear mine it ports. Putin also proposed to export Ukrainian grain through Belarus.

At the same time, Putin warned that today there is a danger that Ukrainian grain will be used to pay for weapons. "It will be very sad," the president said.

link

As you can see, no one is making any demands for the lifting of sanctions.

An article on Aljazeera states that Putin is demanding removal of sanctions in order for ships to carry grain
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Russian Forces Are Hitting Eastern Ukraine With an Estimated 60,000 Shells Per Day

That is the only way Putin's 2d rate military can attempt to "win". A bloody war of attrition will continue and may be for some time.

Again … the USA's leadership was a day late & a dollar short[remember A'stan!], and leading from behind. The US leadership should have been leading NATO and others to start shipping all types of weapons, etc., as Russia was massing on the border. If that did not deter Putin and make him think twice. The weapons from NATO, etc. would have caused the Russians more losses than they already have incurred. Yes, then & now killing more Russians is still a good tactic.

Statement by Deputy Prime Minister Viktoriya Abramchenko in an interview on June 15: "We do not prevent the export of grain from the territory of Ukraine, from any part of it, including from the territory where temporary administrations work. We do not interfere in this process. Today, this grain is exported by road and by rail — we see these corridors of grain carriers and trucks that go to Europe. Ukrainian grain can be exported, there would be a desire."

Is there another source confirming this ?

Legion we have touched on this before… I strongly agree that we need to make every effort to keep Ukraine supplied, but my opinion still is that any big arms buildup from the US before the invasion could have be framed by Putin as provocation to justify the invasion and may have weakened the condemnation of Putin around the world. The US and NATO needed for Putin to be the total bad guy in order to respond as they did and win the PR war.

But… Once it happened we needed to move quickly on assistance and I cannot tell whether that has happened. Or whether Ukraine can hang on.

And I should add that i think your position is also valid . I did not think Putin would go this far. Maybe he could have been deterred. But maybe nobody could have predicted his behavior or guessed at his goals. He is not rationale and maybe not in good health. He has made an historic blunder from which Russia will not recover from anytime soon. The tragedy is that Ukraine suffers the cost..

Russia, Turkey offer corridor to ship crops from Odesa port

Turkey and Russia have reached a tentative deal to restart shipments of Ukraine's agricultural products from a key Black Sea port, but Kyiv remains skeptical of the proposed pact, according to people familiar with the discussions.

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Bloomberg

The Bloomberg report is dated 6/6/22. This predates the 8 June report above:

"Ukrainian grain crisis: Turkey says the lifting of Russia sanctions 'legitimate' in Lavrov visit.
Russia is asking for sanctions to be lifted before allowing grain exports from blockaded Ukrainian ports.

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Matros Pozynich (RU) the Sevastopol grain thief ship switched off its AIS [locator] approx 15 hours ago adjacent to the Syrian port of Tartus., Tim L-G, Jun 18, 2022.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Legion we have touched on this before… I strongly agree that we need to make every effort to keep Ukraine supplied, but my opinion still is that any big arms buildup from the US before the invasion could have be framed by Putin as provocation to justify the invasion and may have weakened the condemnation of Putin around the world.

Maybe … the IDF made a similar error in the '73 War. For PR purposes/optics, and they had a hell of a time to play catch-up and victory.

Never give your enemy an advantage …

Who believed what Putin said…?

Never again…

Armand

"Open Your Gates… we will not try to attack them… Honest!"
Russia WANTS Odessa.

'Easy' solution for situation… Russia pulls out to pre-invasion boundaries. NOT going to happen.
WORLD will just have to accommodate to things. Very tough for some peoples… but Russia started this.
Make sure those peoples KNOW this fact… and Try to Aid in some way… IF we can afford to do so… we all have problems of our own.

Heedless Horseman, you already decide what you want. At first, Russia is accused of not allowing ships with grain from Odessa to pass. When Russia agreed to this, it turned out that no one needed it. The question has disappeared by itself, there is nothing more to decide.

Druzhina, 03.06.22 Putin said that Moscow will not put forward any conditions. "We will ensure peaceful passage, we guarantee the safety of approaches to these ports, we will ensure the entry of foreign ships and their movement along the Azov and Black Seas in any direction," the Russian leader said.

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Where can I find official Russian statements demanding the lifting of sanctions in exchange for the passage of ships with grain? Direct speech, not someone's retelling?

The UN has no evidence that Russia is stealing grain from Ukraine. There is only Ukrainian propaganda:

"Question: Second question is on Ukraine. The Ukraine Foreign Minister [inaudible] said that Russia is allegedly stealing Ukrainian grain and must be investigated. Is the UN aware of such conduct of Russia in Ukraine?

Spokesman: We have seen… there were recent media reports. We are talking to our colleagues at WFP (World Food Programme), who would be in the lead. There is no… they have no way of verifying these allegations. I think WFP, as we all have, have been advocating for free movement of food from the Black Sea to ensure that the needs of people around the world are met, and that is what the Secretary‑General has been working towards".

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Yesterday, the Russian General Staff announced the destruction of 50 Ukrainian senior officers and generals by missile attack during the meeting. Ukraine never officially confirms the loss of senior officers, but one should keep an eye on published obituaries in the near future.

Grain Exports

The Kremlin has provided an English translation of Putin's Interview with Rossiya TV.

We know that Putin lies in public.
Russia's foreign minister Lavrov also lies in public.
Lavrov had a meeting with the foreign minister of Turkey, Çavuşoğlu. We don't know what Lavrov said in this meeting, but, Çavuşoğlu does.

Noting that they also discussed the problem created by the war in the Black Sea, Çavuşoğlu said, "Chief among these are products to be imported from Ukraine and Russia. We are talking about a cooperation plan that can be formed between the UN Russia and Ukraine, we see this plan as reasonable and feasible. We can hold a meeting in Istanbul to discuss the details of this. We consider Russia's demand to lift sanctions regarding the transportation of grain products to international markets justified. We think that necessary steps should be taken regarding banking transactions, and we hope that the world will pave the way for this. We think it would be beneficial to implement this mechanism in order for the ships to continue their course safely."

In the original turkish:
"Bunların başında Ukrayna'da ve Rusya'dan ithal edilecek ürünler var. BM Rusya ve Ukraya arasında oluşturulabilecek bir iş birliği planından bahsediyoruz, biz bu planı makul ve uygulanabilir görüyoruz. Bunun detaylarını görüşmek için İstanbul'da bir görüşme yapabiliriz. Tahıl ürünlerinin uluslararası piyasalara ulaştırılması konusunda Rusya'nın yaptırımları kaldırma talebini haklı görüyoruz. Bankacılık işlemleri konusunda gerekli adımların atılması gerektiğini düşünüyoruz, dünyanın bunun önünü açmasını umuyoruz. Gemilerin güvenli bir şekilde seyrine devam etmesi için bu mekanizmanın hayata geçirilmesinin faydalı olacağını düşünüyoruz" from kronos35.news, 08 June 2022.

You probably won't find statements of this in Russian, Putin finds it more likely to succeed if he uses proxies. These statements not being in Russian does not prove that the demands do not exit.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Hm. But still, this is just a retelling by the Turkish minister of other people's words. It is not a direct speech, but only an interpretation. In such a retelling, some Turkish interests may already be embedded.
Do you have any doubt that Turkey has its own interests, which are quite far from both the interests of the West and the interests of Russia?

The queue for submitting documents for obtaining a Russian passport in Melitopol today.

youtu.be/AvwiEZT3dxU

This looks like it might be the queue for getting a Russian passport so you don't "disappear" at some point.

I'd suspect that unless provided with evidence to the contrary that the occupation administration won't accept Ukrainian ID or will make your life difficult if that's all you have….

Exactly. Russian ID – don't leave home without it.

Yes. Easy to propagandise pragmatism for patriotism.

Those videos are only for Russian consumption because it's so clumsy and transparent.

Do you have any doubt that Turkey has its own interests, which are quite far from both the interests of the West and the interests of Russia?

Turkey would quite happily gain benefits from either side. This can also make them a useful proxy. Turkey will not lose anything by being a proxy for Russian interests, except some respect.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Tortorella, ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa in any case, this shows how confident people are in the return of Ukrainian power, do you agree? And they are not afraid of repression or even death in the event of the return of Ukrainian nationalists to this city.

Druzhina, does this mean that you need to fully trust the Turkish interpretation of events?

People do what they have to do to survive this. They are confident of nothing under the occupation by a conscript army, lacking skills and leaders, primary tactic is indiscriminate shelling of civilians by old fashioned artillery like WW1.
There are afraid, as they should be. As Russians intend them to be. Getting in line for Russian ID is another way of staying alive.

Cuprum2. AFAIK Russian allowance of shipping was construant of Ukraine removal of Sea Mines to prevent Seaborne attack… Ukrainians are NOT that stupid.

They will have made provisions.. but would be insane to accept any Russian 'agreements'.

Want to be SERIOUS? Let a NATO Fleet into Black Sea for 'Shipping Protection'… LOL!

Morale: Midnight Calls From Ukrainians Under Fire

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Armand

does this mean that you need to fully trust the Turkish interpretation of events?

I believe that Çavuşoğlu was willing to pass on the Russian message. Idon't know if Çavuşoğlu thinks the demands are justified, but, that Lavrov told him they were. Do you have Lavrov's specific correction/disagreement with what Çavuşoğlu said? (not just his repeating of Putin's line).

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Ukrainians don't know how to form an orderly queue. I would have liked to see the passport office in a video about a passport office. One thing missing is Russian flags being waved.

Collaborator boasts that there will be Russian passports and Russian networks in Melitopol, pravda.com.ua, 31 MAY 2022.
"Volodymyr Rohov, a Russian collaborator and traitor to Ukraine, said that in the occupied city of Melitopol, people have begun receiving documents for Russian citizenship. They receive 10,000 rubles each [approximately $130 USD] and can also use Russian phone and internet networks."

Melitopol: Thousands Queue For Russian Passports!, the Sangha Kommune (SSR), 4.6.2022.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Some interesting items.
Photos of captured Russian soldier.

Photos of amother Russian neo-Nazi

Comparison of what Russia is doing in Ukraine and what Russia did in Chechnya. Which would also be an explanation as to why people were lining up for Russian Passports.
link

I think the entire Nazis in Ukraine or Russia for that matter is over played. But it gives Putin another excuse to invade Ukraine. How many Nazis are really in the Ukraine or Russia ?

The US has a Nazi Party too. How many of them are there in the USA ? Why are not they supporting their Nazi "brothers" in the Ukraine ?

IMO waving the "Go Kill Nazis" flag is again a distraction, an excuse, etc. NOT that I support the Nazis, White Supremacists, KKK, etc., etc., types. to any degree. I feel just they opposite. The are fools, doing and saying foolish things.

Only Russians or Russian supporters believe the Nazi thing justifies an invasion.
There are so many images of captured Russians, Belorussian volunteers and Wagner troops with Nazi tats, it makes that reasoning a total joke.
It's a non-issue for the Ukrainians I've spoken to.

It's all about dehumanising your enemy to make it easier to kill them.

Everyone hates Nazis right?
Orcs are the evil hordes.

Works both ways.

The queue for submitting documents for obtaining a Russian passport in Melitopol today.

I would have liked to see the passport office in a video about a passport office.

In video youtu.be/AvwiEZT3dxU they don't appear to be holding documents in the "queue". One woman walks past the "queue" who has what may be documents. So the others are probably waiting for something else.

This was not the 1st date that the passport office was open.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Don't forget that Putin have said that the excuse was not only because of Nazis … he also said degenerate "Homosexuals"… I was shocked when I read that…

williamb… good point… what our dear friend Cuprum have to said about that now?….

Armand

Russian Troops in Ukraine Face ‘Extraordinary' Casualty Rates: U.K. Intelligence

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link

Armand

Link 1) "Figures published last week by the Donetsk People's Republic, part of the pro-Putin self-declared autonomous region in eastern Ukraine known as the Donbas, claimed that more than 2,100 of its forces had died since operations began and nearly 9,000 had been wounded.
The casualty rate equals roughly 55% of its total force, according to the U.K. Ministry of Defense, "which highlights the extraordinary attrition rate Russian and pro-Russian forces are suffering in the Donbas.""

This has been reported as 55% of their original force which is not the same thing.
These 500 word articles miss-reporting previous information are next to useless.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Russian Troops in Ukraine Face ‘Extraordinary' Casualty Rates

Based on all we have seen that sounds to be very accurate. And as we know Putin, his GENs, etc. don't care how many they lose.

Druzhina, let's assume that Çavuşoğlu and Lavrov discussed several options for resolving the issue. In one of the options, the issue of lifting sanctions was also discussed (although it is not at all clear to me how Turkey can lift sanctions that were not imposed by it). This does not mean that Russia demanded such a decision, but it only means that this issue was discussed – and nothing more. What needs to be refuted here? Nothing.

This is the first day of the opening of the NEW passport office. Since the capacity of previously opened document reception points was not enough.

williamb – you are engaged in primitive distortion.
Firstly, in the first photo, not a Russian soldier, judging by the military ID, but a serviceman of the DPR army. But he also has a Russian passport issued in 2016. This is not surprising – many residents of the DPR and LPR received Russian passports.
In the second photo – not a Russian soldier. This is one of the leaders of the Russian PMC.
And I once again explain a simple difference – in the Russian army there may be Nazis by conviction who do not advertise their own convictions. But in Russia there are no Nazis in power, public propaganda of Nazism in Russia faces a long prison term, in Russia military units are not formed from the Nazis.
And this is all a huge difference with what is happening in Ukraine.

Tango01
"Don't forget that Putin have said that the excuse was not only because of Nazis… he also said degenerate "Homosexuals"…
Where can I find such a statement of his?

"Don't forget that Putin have said that the excuse was not only because of Nazis… he also said degenerate "Homosexuals"…
Where can I find such a statement of his?

Putin's Anti-Gay War on Ukraine

From Putin's speech on February 24th, while not specifically stating that was implied by the degenerate values being forced upon the people of Donbass by the Nazis.

Properly speaking, the attempts to use us in their own interests never ceased until quite recently: they sought to destroy our traditional values and force on us their false values that would erode us, our people from within, the attitudes they have been aggressively imposing on their countries, attitudes that are directly leading to degradation and degeneration, because they are contrary to human nature. This is not going to happen. No one has ever succeeded in doing this, nor will they succeed now.

Patriarch of Moscow: Gay pride parades are to blame for the war in Ukraine

From the Press Service of the Moscow Patriarchate

IF KIRILL'S BIZARRE SERMON BLAMING WAR ON PRIDE PARADES COMES AS A SURPRISE, IT'S TIME TO LEARN THE HISTORY

Now.. who would have thought that Nazis were the main supporters of LGBTQ+…

We consider Russia's demand to lift sanctions regarding the transportation of grain products to international markets justified.

This is not saying "we discussed many different things, one of them was…", which is your proposed assumption. There also is no reason to believe that Türkiye is the one to lift the sanctions, as otherwise they would not have to state that they feel the demand is justified, they could just lift the sanctions.

Cuprum, I did provide the original Turkish. Here is another translation:
Concerning the transportation of cereal products to international markets, we consider Russia's demand to lift sanctions justified. Concerning banking transactions, we think that necessary steps should be taken and we hope that the world will open the way for this.

Notice the use of "world".
Putin has said there are no conditions, but is trying to have conditions via a Turkish proxy relaying the demand to lift sanctions, and specifically banking transaction sanctions. Not a tactic that is likely to work, but it shows Putin is lying.

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Do you have the address of the NEW passport office in Melitopol & the address of the previous pro-Russian occupier's passport office in Melitopol?
Edit: For some reason the video has been deleted!

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Cuprum2, if there are no Nazi's in power in Russia why is the man in the second photo standing with Putin? Secondly, I am only quoting the site that I posted the pictures from and not engaging in deliberate deception or distorting what a website claims to back up my statements. I had no way of knowing that the prisoner was not actually a Russian soldier.

Here is the link to the website that claimed the prisoner was a Russian soldier link

Here are some links to other sites with information about Russian Neo-Nazis and Putin's lies

link

link

link

link

link

link

As for claims of Nazis being in charge of Ukraine and its government being not being legitimate, the current president of Ukraine is Jewish and won a fair election to become its president. This is more than can be said of Putin or his puppet in Belarus. The current president of Belarus lost the election, but remained in office thanks to Putin's support.

Thanks…

Waiting Cuprum explanations…

Armand

An update on the photos. The prisoner is from a Wagner unit. Wagner is providing at least three battalion tactical groups for the Russian army. Many of the soldiers in the Wagner units have tattoos like the prisoner in the photo.

So, while Cuprum2 is claiming that he is not a Russian soldier because he is from the break-away regions of Ukraine and only has a Russian passport, he actually is a soldier in the Russian army. If he was not part of the Russian army and was a soldier in a unit from the break-away regions he would not need a Russian passport and would have one for the break-away region.

Additional information from: link

US imposes sanctions on Russian defense enterprises to limit their ability to replace lost equipment in Ukraine

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A Closer Look At Ukraine's Foreign Legion (Videos)

YouTube link

YouTube link

Armand

White House Officials Losing Confidence That Ukraine Can Win Back All Of Its Territory

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Putin's Only Strategy Is Self-Destruction In Ukraine

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Kremlin Says Russia Will End Its Invasion When Ukraine ‘Surrenders'

tass.com/world/1472505

Armand

I think as I just heard a US Army GEN.(ret.) on the news say that it is important that Russia/Putin loses. For everybody, save Putin, et al. If they get Ukraine, regardless of the cost. It may embolden Putin, etc., however his military is significantly attrited, and is surrounded by NATO on the West & North.

Unless Russian Regime 'Collapses'… and little hope for that… there is No Way that Ukraine will be able to 'Win Back' Eastern areas. Support what is left. Future may bring changes. Ukraine WILL NOT 'collapse'… unless we let it.

Best case… Putin dies… and Power Struggle allows concessions / weaknesses.

Watch Out for other areas!

'Russia is NOT invincible' is, maybe' the only positive thing to come from Attack on Ukraine.