"Horse furniture for Russio-German Legion Hussars" Topic

So my quick consultation with Dr Google and TMP told me lots about their uniforms but not their mounts. Would Russian Hussar shabraques be what was used or, because of equipment scarcity, something else? What colours were those saddle cloths? Were they the same for each of the 2 regiments?

Many thanks in advance.

According to Stephen Summerfield's "Brazen Cross of Courage" pages 102/103
1st regiment – dark green shabraque piped scarlet and a wide band of scarlet separated by a welt of green,
2nd Regimernt – black shabraque piped mlight blue.

Thanks Prince of Essling

I have that Summerfield publication but had forgotten that it covered the Russio-German Legion! The reference is suggestive of a shabraque other than the Russian Hussar shabraque with wolf teeth edging was used ("wide band of scarlet separated by a welt of green" – what is a welt?) or am I misunderstanding that? The second regiment shabraque description is also very suggestive of a non Russian Hussar shabraque.

But this seems strange if the equipment was initially Russian.

Any thoughts?
does not make it absolutely clear whether the Russian Hussar shabraque with wolf teeth edging was used, or something else.

1st Hussar Regiment (1. Husarenregiment), formed from August 1812 to January 1813 in Revel and Tsarskoye Selo from 30 chevalegers of the 2e régiment de chevau-legers lanciers hollandais de la garde, 40 Prussian hussars, and by volunteer Lithuanians, Württembergers, Saxons, Bavarians, Latvians, Estonians and ethnic Germans resident in St. Petersburg. The regiment was commanded by Colonel Baron Alexander Wilhelm von der Goltz (1774-1820).

The 2nd Hussar Regiment (2. Husarenregiment) was formed from February to May 1813 in Mitau and Konigsberg from volunteer Poles, Croats, Swiss, Slovenes and Dalmatians. The regiment commander was Colonel Count Karl Friedrich Emil zu Dohna-Schlobitten (1784-1859).

In order to avoid drawing on Russian Army supplies, the regiments were initially equipped from the militia depot in Saint-Petersburg and (captured Swedish ?) stores in Finland. Starting in June 1813, they were supplied from English depots on Rügen Island in Pommerania. So "non-standard" shabraques are quite likely.

I do not know Dr. Summerfield's source for the shabraque colors. I could find no references for this. But what he provides is completely sensible, especially for the period after the armistice in 1813.

Thank you Michman. "Non-standard" shabraques it is then.
From what I can gather Swedish Hussar shabraques were pointy with wolf's teeth edging, so similar to those of Russian Hussars. Maybe they are a possibility, given your observation of possibly Swedish stores.

Putting them to one side, what would you think the non-standard shabraques might otherwise be, even if only a range of possibilities?

I would guess like Saint-Petersburg Militia :

Zoom in on the shabraque.
You see the base color, then (moving to the edge) a wide stripe of distinctive (maybe not used in the 2nd Russo-German Regiment, reading Dr. Summerfield "verbatim" ?) and then a bit of the main clothe (his "welt") and finally edging (his "piping") in the distinctive. The main part is likely wool (with a little padding in the seat) and the trimming woven dyed horse or goat hair (heavy silk for rich officer's parade dress). Overall, "Cossack-style."

But really, until the British started suppling them, it could easily have been nothing more than a un-dyed wool horse blanket. The Russian Army Hussars, Cossacks and Native Cavalry often rode thus (and the Hussars in forage caps, gray riding trousers, with no "hanging" pelisses), to save wear on their more expensive equipment.

Here is a link I forgot : best modern summary about the Legion that I found, in German :
link

Hello Michman

Thank you for those thoughtful observations. The 'cossack style' saddle cloths seems a very good intuitive guess, and now that you have suggested it probably what I will end up with

My German is pretty mediocre but I will hunt down that 1966 publication and see how I go. What a fantastic rabbit hole to decend down!

Many thanks again.

You would think that having partied so much with Cossacks it might have been obvious to me …

The work of Gabriele Venzky is more a social and military history of the Russo-German-Legion. And regarding the uniforms the most valuable source is the history written by Quistorp in 1860 – also the regimental history of the 8th Prussian ulans by Förster quotes Quistorp … but unfortunately no remark about the horse furniture and the saddle cloth, only mention about black leather. Zweguintzow writes in his 4th volume: "les schabraques ne sont figurées nulle part".

During the migration to Prussia it is mentioned in Quistorp that the hussar regiments were very well uniformed and equipped in 1815, so at least there they should have a kind of "official" horse furniture – I would guess alike Russian hussars with no monograms or signs on the cloth.

Also Knötel doesn't give any clue about the saddle cloth on his plate – and the contemporary images only show soldiers on foot.

Here's a link of the Russo-German legion images in my uniform portal: link

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

So Zweguintzow notes that the shabraques are not represented or shown anywhere, and it would seem an educated guess is all that can be done. I was thinking Russian Hussar shabraques without monograms too until Michman's thought provoking post, following up on Prince Essling's reference to the Summerfield publication.

Does anyone know what the sources were that Dr Summerfield used? It seems to be the only description of these elusive shabraques out there.

Many thanks for your thoughts Markus, and the link. Greetings from Sydney.

"Does anyone know what the sources were that Dr Summerfield used?"
The passage in "Brazen Cross of Courage" is not foot-noted.

Here is the work by von Quistorp ….
˜Die kaiserlich-russisch-deutsche Legion" (1860)
link

Here is the work by von Förster ….
"Geschichte des Königlich Preussischen Ulanen-Regiments Graf zu Dohna Ostpreussisches Nr. 8 von 1815 bis 1890" (1890)
link

Please note : these are in German, in image formats (no copy/paste), and in old-style black fonts.

And were it not for Dr. Summerfield's text, I would have guessed the same as Mr. Stein : "alike Russian hussars with no monograms or signs on the cloth"
1st regiment – dark green, scarlet teeth
2nd Regimernt – black, "sky" blue teeth

So the position appears to be either a) a non-monogramed Russian Hussar Woolf's tooth shabraque based on the fact that the R-G Hussars were equipped by the Russians and that was what their Hussars had; or b) a Cossack styled shabraque, perhaps also pointed but no Woolf's teeth, based on an unattributed statement by a very well respected expert author.

I will look at the German texts kindly provided above, but this will take me a while as the script is the delightful old German script and my German is very modest. I am looking forward to that challenge! But in the meantime I wonder whether I could make contact with Dr Summerfield and ask him whether the shabraque description was an educated guess (and if so why – no doubt he would have good reasons) or from a source, and if so what that source might be.

Before I go looking would anyone know how to contact Dr Summerfield?

Many thanks again.

Last shout out for Dr Summerfield!

As I don't have Stephens email address, I assume that he used a plate published by Roger Forthoffer in his series – this one covering the Prussian Ulan regiments.

The b/w plate with the 8th Ulan regiment shows a hussar of the 1st regiment (1st and 2nd squadron of the Ulan) and a hussar of the 2nd regiment (3rd & 4th). Both with the Russian hussar shabraque with wolf's teeth, their colors like Michman has stated.

BUT: also Roger Forthoffer didn't state his sources, so don't take it as proven … although I think this kind of horse furniture is quite probable – like stated above and agreed by Michman.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein