"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic
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Tango01  | 28 Sep 2025 10:49 p.m. PST |
What about the 18th previous package sanctions …?
Where is package sanction nb 1 from this Administration?…
Or Putin is really your friend…?
Armand
|
| noggin2nog | 28 Sep 2025 11:57 p.m. PST |
Trump's tariffs don't bring in a penny from abroad – you're paying the tariffs as a tax on all foreign goods imported to USA. They don't cost the rest of the world anything. And contrary to the bull***t that Trump comes out with, once the effect of the tariffs hits home, you can look forward to rampant inflation, rising unemployment, a higher national deficit and shortages of goods on the shelves (unless you are able to suddenly produce them domestically). |
| 35thOVI | 29 Sep 2025 6:16 a.m. PST |
[ "Trump's tariffs don't bring in a penny from abroad – you're paying the tariffs as a tax on all foreign goods imported to USA. They don't cost the rest of the world anything. And contrary to the bull***t that Trump comes out with, once the effect of the tariffs hits home, you can look forward to rampant inflation, rising unemployment, a higher national deficit and shortages of goods on the shelves (unless you are able to suddenly produce them domestically)." ] 🤔
So you are saying, we will become UK?
[ "
In September 2025, forecasts predict that the UK will have the highest annual inflation rate among the G7 nations at around 3.5%, while the US is forecast to have a lower rate of approximately 2.7%. This indicates higher inflationary pressures in the UK compared to the US, with UK inflation expected to peak around 4.0% in September 2025, before a gradual decline towards its 2% target by 2027, whereas the US's inflation has just surpassed its 2% target and is anticipated to fall. " ]
[ " In 2025, the U.S. economy is projected to maintain higher growth and a much larger GDP than the U.K. economy, which is expected to experience slower growth, high inflation, and domestic demand weakness despite strong service exports. The U.S. benefits from a booming tech sector, lower energy costs, and strong private equity, while the U.K. faces challenges from structural labor costs, persistent inflation, and the dampening effect of increased U.S. tariffs" ] These things happen when one keeps electing socialist. 🤭 Maybe listen to those in your country who oppose your current government. 💡 Maybe display the Union Jack near a migrant hotel. 🤔 Or can you? "TDA" can be harmful to one's health. 😉 |
| 35thOVI | 29 Sep 2025 7:03 a.m. PST |
@Tort [ "I think Putin would have walked into Ukraine with Trump in the WH, maybe some trade deal. .Putin has his number. The last admin dealt with the Covid economy and kept us going. It was very far from the worst. it was a flop in a number of other ways, but the numbers don't lie." ] Tort you keep ignoring, Putin walked in under both Biden and Obama. Not during Trump's first term. What was inherited was a three year war,
where emotions and hate had hardened on both sides. I've said before on TMP that he should not have said he could end this in weeks before the election. Naïve on his part, but then again it was not on his watch. |
| noggin2nog | 29 Sep 2025 8:54 a.m. PST |
Why would I want to display the Union Flag, or flag of St George near any hotel – I have no problem with migrants because I'm not a stupid, ignorant racist.
The real problem resides with the hoarding of wealth by a few billionnaires, who sow division as a distraction tactic, just like your own POTUS and our Farage. |
 Legion 4 | 29 Sep 2025 9:00 a.m. PST |
I think Putin would have walked into Ukraine with Trump in the WH Well then you are disagreeing with many Ret. Senior Military officers and Intel agency assets. Based on everything I have read, watched, studied, etc. I again believe, Putin saw Biden was mentally deficient. Due to age, etc., but just as important, Biden was never considered as very good at his job in Congress but as usual incompetents, etc., continue to get voted back in for decades. Nor as VP, Obama has even said as much. Again Putin is predator, he is former KGB, a sociopath/psychopath, a Stalinist with visions of grandeur. He wants to go down in history as a great leader. He will go done in history no doubt. But not as a great leader, but as imperialistic, warmonger, etc. Obama couldn't handle Putin nor Biden. Trump as a much higher probably of dealing with Putin. Yes, Putin fooled Trump and pretty much everyone else. But the geopolitical wargame continues. Every time a leader makes a decision, it may not pan out. E.g. How many times did Grant try to capture Vicksburg ? Didn't Monty say he could capture Caen in 3 days within landing ? That Market-Garden would secure crossing points over the Rhine. Patton's raid to rescue POWs[including his Son-in-Law [IIRC] while advancing across Europe. Had Kennedy not died he already had planned to withdraw from Vietnam. But Johnson decided to stay. Costing far to much blood and far too much treasure. The US Military leadership thought they could fight a war of attrition with a 3d World Asian country. Which had large birth rate plus the VC/NVA were not going anywhere. Today the media said the POTUS may give Ukraine cruise missiles, with a 1500-mile range. Which could hit Moscow, etc. deep into Russia.
This may work; the US/NATO has to try another method to help Ukraine defeat Putin.
|
| noggin2nog | 29 Sep 2025 9:16 a.m. PST |
"High inflation in the UK is driven by factors including:
1. High global energy and food prices, exacerbated by Russia's invasion of Ukraine and post-pandemic supply chain issues;
2. Brexit-related adjustments and labour shortages increasing business costs;
3. A tight labour market leading to higher wage growth as businesses compete for talent.
These factors contribute to higher prices for energy, food, and services, impacting the overall cost of living." Factor 1 is a global effect.
Factor 2 is due to Farage and Johnson convincing the dullards in this country that we "need to secure our borders" and "stop being ruled by Brussells", etc.
Factors 2 and 3 would be reduced by actually encouraging immigration into the UK, given how important migrant workers are to health services, food production, etc. |
| noggin2nog | 29 Sep 2025 9:20 a.m. PST |
As for Farage's claim that Reform want to stop immigration to "protect our women and girls" all of the mass murders/serial killers that I can think of off the top of my head from the last 50 years (since the Windrush immigration) are all white, native Brits (Shipman, the Wests, Hindley and Brady, Letby, Sutcliffe) as was our most notorious mass shooter (Michael Ryan in Hungerford). |
| noggin2nog | 29 Sep 2025 9:31 a.m. PST |
"Maybe listen to those in your country who oppose your current government."
Luckily, I can; either in the MSM (which apparently in the US is afraid to criticise Trump for fear of reprisals, losing licences, etc), watching satirical programmes/comedians, e.g. Have I Got News for You/Spitting Image/Mock the Week (again in the US such programmes seem to be taken off the air when Trump decides that he doesn't like being the target of the satire), or even going out into the street and demonstrating peacefully (without having to worry about the Prime Minister sending in the Marines to stop me). |
| 35thOVI | 29 Sep 2025 9:38 a.m. PST |
Ahh!!! But our economy is better. 😉 As far as immigration; ["Recent data shows a TFR of approximately 2.9 children per woman for Muslims, compared to around 1.5 for non-Muslims in the UK, contributing to a higher natural population increase for Muslims." ] I know, your politicians tell you that'll change. I would not count on that. Subject: Why are so many British babies being given the same name as a murderous Hamas terrorist?
link
As Edward said in "Braveheart":
"If we can't get them out… we'll breed them out." Those immigrants may be thinking along those same lines. It's worked for them elsewhere. Well that and a little Jihad. 😉 |
| SBminisguy | 29 Sep 2025 9:53 a.m. PST |
I think Putin would have walked into Ukraine with Trump in the WH, maybe some trade deal. .Putin has his number. Nah -- because we know what happened when Putin directly challenged Trump, a dead Wagner Battalion. And Trup sent Javelin ATGMs and other weapons to Ukraine where Obama did not, and he browbeat NATO into rearming. In contrast Biden DIRECTLY INVITED PUTIN TO INVADE UKRAINE! "Biden's 'minor incursion' comment roils diplomatic efforts to halt Russian invasion of Ukraine" link |
| Tortorella | 29 Sep 2025 11:00 a.m. PST |
Noggin, you cannot get the right to agree. They believe Trump. Nothing can be done about it, no matter the facts. |
| Tortorella | 29 Sep 2025 11:10 a.m. PST |
Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine as blackmail for coming up with political dirt on his opponent. Otherwise he was ineffective. Some browbeating, but also crude public disdain for allies. Putin loves this disunity building, both in the US and abroad. Xi as well. The Russia Hoax hoax should someday have a thorough history revealed. Trump is no fool and no traitor, but he is out of his depth in dealing with Putin. |
| 35thOVI | 29 Sep 2025 11:57 a.m. PST |
Tort I don't know what I can say. You see this desolate economic landscape. Maybe in NE it is, (change your state politicians if so). It's not that bad here. Gas is lower than under Joe. Eggs, Bacon and Milk are lower. Coffee has gone up, probably tariffs. Beef obviously higher. But listening to a representative of the beef industry a couple of weeks ago, that has to do with factors unrelated to tariffs. They say demand is at all time highs. Personally, I would say greed. We just stop buying it and it goes down. Want to bet? 😉 Pork and Chicken have not changed. Otherwise, I see no real trends difference price wise, than under Joe for food. The market is at all time highs. Gold and silver as well(some don't like that, I do). From nBC ["Revised GDP data from the Commerce Department puts second-quarter economic growth at 3.8%. That could complicate things for the Federal Reserve, which tends to cut rates when the economy is struggling." ] I hope you will note how a mainstream media source, always has to put some negative spin in anything positive for the administration. 😉 Now notice a negative to each positive. This is how the MSM works. Would not want you to get the idea things might be looking good. 😂 [ " The revision largely reflected stronger growth in consumer spending, which was also revised upward, from 1.6% to 2.5%. Multiple surveys show the mood among consumers remains glum — but Thursday's spending data, plus other releases from banks, signals they remain willing to maintain their pace of purchasing. Meanwhile, new and ongoing claims for unemployment assistance fell over the past week, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. The Federal Reserve said last week it expects the unemployment rate to climb from 4.3% to as much as 4.5% by the end of the year, but the latest data may allay some worries about further deterioration in the job market." ] Many "experts" are changing their tunes [ "Multiple major financial institutions and economic organizations have recently revised their 2025 forecasts, reducing the probability of a recession that many had previously predicted. The shift toward a more optimistic outlook is primarily driven by stronger-than-expected economic data, including resilient consumer spending, strong labor markets, and robust tech investment. Key changes in economic forecasts Reduced recession risk: Financial institutions are walking back earlier predictions of a 2025 recession. For example, J.P. Morgan Research lowered its probability estimate for a U.S. and global recession in 2025 from 60% to 40%. UCLA's Anderson Forecast similarly noted that as of March 2025, there were "no signs of an imminent recession". Upgraded growth expectations: A September 2025 survey by Bloomberg found that economists had raised their forecasts for U.S. economic growth for the third and fourth quarters of 2025. In December 2024, Goldman Sachs projected that the U.S. economy would "outperform economist expectations again" in 2025. Acknowledged risks remain: While the most severe warnings have lessened, many analysts still project a period of below-trend economic growth. Headwinds such as tighter immigration policies, persistent high inflation, and the disruptive effects of new tariffs are expected to weigh on the economy in the near term. Factors driving the changing sentiment Resilient consumer spending: Strong consumer spending, which accounts for a large portion of U.S. GDP, continues to bolster the economy.
Robust job market: Despite some softening, the labor market remains resilient. A strong job market and wage growth allow consumers to continue spending, offsetting other financial pressures. AI investment boom: Significant investment in artificial intelligence and other technologies is fueling productivity improvements and driving business investment, providing a tailwind for the economy. Better-than-expected data: A series of positive economic reports, including revised second-quarter 2025 GDP figures, have led forecasters to update their models. The Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta's GDPNow model is forecasting strong growth for the third quarter of 2025." ] If I trusted the MSM, I'd have placed a gun in my mouth in 2016. 😉 Now let me show you a headline, if a conservative source wrote news like the MSM does today and based off my previous line. "Liberals under Trump are committing suicide at unprecedented rates!
Gun and ammunition stocks are at all time highs!"
😉 |
| Tortorella | 29 Sep 2025 2:59 p.m. PST |
Probably the most objective report by one of the world's most informed financial advisor companies. You will see that there are a lot of what ifs and variables. link The second quarter rise was based on last minute economic activity to avoid tariff costs. It did help, but we are slowing down. But the tariffs change like the wind. It could work out. Guns sales up again! We must have half a billion guns that we know of. Here's my fake headline:" Gun Sales Decline, Ammo Up as Citizens Realize Guns Are Reusable!" |
| Tango01 | 29 Sep 2025 11:09 p.m. PST |
Sweden to Lead NATO Defense Brigade in Finnish Lapland Against Russian Threat link
Please fellow members, with all my respect… Stop highjacking every thread to post your local politic/economy issues… open a new thread with the title of your choice about US internal affairs and respect the meaning of threads that want to deal with international issues related to armed conflicts.
Armand |
| Tortorella | 30 Sep 2025 5:31 a.m. PST |
Armand, my posts were mostly related to the US economy and the cost of supporting Ukraine under current US leadership.Along with the Putin problem.
If I strayed here and there, I apologize. I know Trump talks too much, but I do not blame him entirely. Putin is a different kind of street smart. He does not sue people, he throws them out of windows. He makes no deals. None of the previous Presidents mattered to him. He was planning Ukraine well before Biden, IMO. Stephen Miller, more than Trump, has played a large roll in bringing back Woke Right cancel culture from the 1940s and 50's, IMO. The divide in the US is a sign of weakness to strategists like Putin and Xi. It has reduced US status around the globe. They are happy to fan the flames using social media and see how.reactionary government change in the US can give them global opportunities. Putin is relentless in grinding down Ukraine. The US is distracted by change and has no dependably consistent strategic vision at the moment. Perhaps Trump's big military meeting will change all this. But who knows? It could also be about expanding the domestic role of the military for all we know, rolling back overseas commitments. |
| 35thOVI | 30 Sep 2025 6:30 a.m. PST |
Tort I suggest you get a full copy of the Secretary of War's speech this morning. I watched it all. I was very impressed. Military getting back to being the military.
The MSM and opposing party will having kittens. It will be the new "outage De Jour". That is why I say watch it yourself and skip the out of context sound bites version. |
| 35thOVI | 30 Sep 2025 7:58 a.m. PST |
Tort, never say I didn't give you something. 😉 Speech starts about 9:30 or so in: Subject: War Department Address – YouTube
YouTube link |
| Legion 4 | 30 Sep 2025 9:07 a.m. PST |
SB & OVI +1/ea … (without having to worry about the Prime Minister sending in the Marines to stop me). The US Gov't has the Constitutional right to send Federal Troops anywhere in the USA. To protect US Federal facilities, etc. NO Federal Troops & Federal LEOs are sent in just to stop a riot, etc. Only if the rioters may attack Federal Property, Federal personnel or even key infrastructures. Then the Feds can be sent in. As I have said before. When I was a Rifle Plt Ldr in the 101. We were trained for riot control, etc. After what happened during Vietnam. In the US a citizen has the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of peaceful protest. BUT if it turns violent, as we saw in the summer of 2020 and recently. Local LEOs have that mission. However, if it looks like Federal property, Federal personnel including ICE, CBP, DEA, etc. will be or are threaten/attacked. Then the NG or if need be, US regular forces can be deployed. If you are going to  on the USA, the POTUS, etc. Get the information right. The US and many in the worldwide media only report what fits their agenda or narrative too. E.g. if ICE goes on a raid to arrest illegal aliens/criminals and ICE is attacked or threaten with harm. Then the Federal Gov't has the right to deploy in NG, active-duty forces, or even additional Federal LEOs … |
| SBminisguy | 30 Sep 2025 10:28 a.m. PST |
Legion4 +1
Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine as blackmail for coming up with political dirt on his opponent. Otherwise he was ineffective. I guess your worldview is pretty set in stone – you see the Democrat spin on Ukraine aid (WITHOUT acknowledging that Trump ARMED Ukraine where Obama did NOT) but I see it as an investigation into rampant Ukraine spending corruption in general, and Burisma was part of it and FAIR GAME after then former VP Biden bragged how when he was VP he blackmailed Ukraine into firing the lead investigator on an internal fraud and corruption case involving Burisma which had hired Bidens son as a DC influencer for something like $86,000 USD per month "I said, ‘You're not getting the billion. I'm going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I'm leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money.' Well, son of a b***. He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time."*
— Joe Biden, Council on Foreign Relations, Jan. 23, 2018 YouTube link |
| Legion 4 | 30 Sep 2025 3:07 p.m. PST |
|
| Tango01 | 30 Sep 2025 11:05 p.m. PST |
US Army Formulates Plans to Deter Russia's Growing War Machine
link
Thanks Tort…I understand what you're saying and what you're saying… I just want to emphasize that repeating over and over again who was or is the best or worst US President, taking into account their internal management, is more than boring for those of us who aren't from there… especially when the same concepts are repeated over and over again or minimal details are added to strengthen each position…
Armand
|
 Silurian | 01 Oct 2025 8:17 a.m. PST |
Tortorella: "He was planning Ukraine well before Biden, IMO." Absolutely right. It was the next logical step, and you only have to look at the scale and logistics of the whole invasion to realize that. |
| Legion 4 | 01 Oct 2025 8:56 a.m. PST |
It took a long time to get all those assets to Ukraine's border. However, had Biden et al., not demonstrated incompetence, etc., dragging its feet to send Ukraine what it needed as soon as it was needed or before. The A'stan debacle clearly gave Putin the impetus, etc. to invade Ukraine. As again, and I'm not the only one to say this but many 0-5s+ Ret., etc. including GENs/ADMs. That Biden's handling of A'stan demonstrated to Putin and our other enemies that he was dealing with the second team/bench warmers. That plan was not made by anyone in the Military. But the likes of Blinken, Sullvian, etc. Based on what we saw and now know. Biden didn't know what day it was, etc. I keep saying this. As again not only me but many others as I continue to post. That outranked me by many levels. Putin would not have invaded if he saw the US & NATO operating under good capable, etc. leadership. And pushed all what Ukraine needed to make Putin's aggression highly unlikely. Lining up on a border, etc. to appear to pose a threat. Or signal the willingness to be aggressive. Is sometimes called a demonstration, show of force, etc. Hoping it will make your enemies do what you want without firing a shot. Yes, Putin pulled assets from everywhere to get what was perceived to be needed to do accomplish the desired effect. As we see, Putin is no strategist, and his high-ranking officer don't have the right stuff to effectively go to war. To think if Trump was POTUS instead of weak, feckless, confused, etc., Biden et al. Putin would have thought twice before he would cross that border. He may have built up forces to the levels he did with Biden in the WH. While Trump was POTUS is ignoring the reality … And reinforced what a horrible choice Biden, the VP, his admin, etc. was for not only the USA, but NATO… Biden, et al, opened Ukraine's border by their incompetence actions that same way they opened up the US borders to millions of illegal aliens. Which also demonstrated to Putin, Iran, etc. Biden's admin, etc. were not only unrealistic, but foolish, etc. |
| SBminisguy | 01 Oct 2025 9:03 a.m. PST |
Legion 4 I think it was planned opportunism after minimal reaction to Putin's 2021 "wargames" -- and especially after Biden all but greenlit the invasion by saying the US wouldn't react to a "Limited incursion" by Russia into Ukraine. So he went into Ukraine not on a general offensive but a targeted Blitz aimed at capturing Kyiv and toppling the government and installing a puppet. 1. So hasty that MOST Russian units did not know what they were doing ,not even that "Commando" raid on a Ukrainian airfield -- they thought they were heloing to an exercise in Crimea! 2. NO proper Combat echelon formation -- 1st Echelon COMBAT formation was followed by 2nd Echelon ADMIN UNITS followed by 3rd Echelon SUPPORT 3 Horrible time of year to attack -- it was "Mud Season" which meant the attack had to funnel down primary roads and bridges as opposed to ross country maneuvers ,allowing Ukrainian defenders to focus resources The Russians got chopped by tenacious and skilled use of ATGM ambushes and artillery by the Ukrainians. Too bad feckless leadership led to Putin thinking he could attack |
| 35thOVI | 01 Oct 2025 10:41 a.m. PST |
Legion & SB +1 The fact that he did this under Obama, waited 4 years and did it again under Biden and so many choose to ignore those facts, at best, is very frustrating. |
| Legion 4 | 01 Oct 2025 4:54 p.m. PST |
SB +1
I think it was planned opportunism Yes especially again that Biden et al clearly demonstrated they were the 2d & 3d Team. Biden should have been benched a long time ago. Putin took advantage, like any predator, going after the slow, weak, etc. |
| Tortorella | 01 Oct 2025 6:17 p.m. PST |
Not ignoring those facts, but assuming that Obama/Biden weakness is connected to Putin's actions is not provenI think you are at least partly right.But I think Trump is the weakest foreign policy POTUS maybe ever. that's my opinion. Just as I think Putin had him for lunch in Alaska. And Trump has not ended Gaza or Ukraine as promised. Because he is not the right guy. I ask again…what happened in Alaska? Give the Biden thing a rest, many of us agree. But now is now. Putin actually is looking stonger, hitting harder. We do nothing but call every commander home for a woke meeting they did not need. Millions wasted. And now Dem cities for their training ground. |
| SBminisguy | 01 Oct 2025 8:52 p.m. PST |
Obama/Biden weakness is connected to Putin's actions is not proven On Obama's watch Putin seized northern Georgia, then Crimea, then the Donbas while Obama did fruck-all. Oh, Obama did cause the MidEast Meltdown by toppling the Egyptian government, and started a literal war for oil in Libya leading to collapse and civil war, and empowering Hezbollah in Lebanon while collapsing the Coalition rule in Iraq leading to the rise of ISIS that ruled 12 MILLION people with medieval barbarity and slavery and sent arms and militant soldiers to islamist anti-Assad factions to fuel the ongoing chaos in Syria, and PROTECTED Iran! And then Trump -- no Putin adventures after Trump blew a Wagner Battalion away in Syria. And then Biden – Putin invaded Ukraine to topple it and take the whole thing. See a trend here??
But I think Trump is the weakest foreign policy POTUS maybe ever. that's my opinion. LOL, seriously? How many wars started under Trump? Zero -- but he has made multiple peace deals. Did he not get NATO and allies to start spending on defense again? Did he not arm Ukraine with the very weapons they used to stop Russia's invasion in 2022? He also reset global trade onto favorable "fair trade" terms with the US. Gaza Peace -- we'll see I guess. Trump's plan has broad support from even the PA, but the key is getting Hamas to stand down. Dunno – too bad Netanyahu didn't take the whole of Gaza as fast as he could. As for Alaska Summit it was Trump's last bid to try and get us on a peace deal path. You see it as a failure because you WANT him to fail because ya hate him. That's on you. He had to try -- but NOBODY WANTED PEACE! Thats the reality -- so it's war until people want peace. We'll sell guns to Europe to give to Ukraine and they will or will not win. Guess we will see. And the All-Hands meeting of senior leadership was totally appropriate to make sure the SecWar can meet them all and in one setting lay out the new plan. This happens all the time in Corporate, especially when there's new management and they lay out the new company direction, so why is this so awful? |
| 35thOVI | 02 Oct 2025 4:42 a.m. PST |
SB +1 I think you only left Iran and Afghanistan off. |
| Tortorella | 02 Oct 2025 6:15 a.m. PST |
Yes, seriousiy. The last bid, huh? He turned on a dime to green light Putin's position on no cease fire. |
| Tortorella | 02 Oct 2025 6:51 a.m. PST |
Yes, seriousiy. The last bid, huh? He turned on a dime in Alaska to green light Putin's position on no cease fire. Syria was a single event in which casualties results were in dispute and there was no fundamental damage that altered capabilities. I give Trump full credit for bombing Iran, although his rhetoric and style in announcing results was needlessly bombastic and arrogant. But he did it and he showed some guts. I do not hate him, he is just not the right guy and he talks like he is selling his own greatness all the time like a needy kid. It hurts us all across the globe. I am grateful that the military appeared to show little emotion as the woke right speeches were delivered. They know that the number of push-ups the troops can do is not the only preparedness goal. War is changing. Those officers may be ambitious and competive with each other as some have said here, but they are also educated, qualified , capable, committed, and not interested in training against Americans. Trump wanted their applause. He got professionals , not rah rahs. They will follow the orders. But they are not into theater. |
| 35thOVI | 02 Oct 2025 7:30 a.m. PST |
I'm curious. 🤨 How did having a military based on quotas of race, sex, sexual preferences advance our "preparedness goal". That may appeal to the base and many Western European governments, but is a joke to our enemies. Seeing "men" prancing around in women's dresses, puts no fear in ones enemies. Mandatory DEI classes does nothing to prepare one for combat. Changing basic training requirements to allow for those who can't meet them, to then get in, again does nothing. It also causes resentment for those who can, especially when those who can't, get the same pay, promotions as those who can make the grade. You make it on your merit, not on your DEI makeup. I've already talked to enlisted personnel who were all for this change. I will also say, the secretary of war on many occasions, has proven his physical fitness and ability to do the same thing that he's demanding of all the individuals in the Armed Forces. If I was in the military, I'd want a Pete Hegseth, as my leader. I know, he would not demand of me what he would not do himself or has already done previously. Also hearing the redundant "Trump using troops against our own citizens", it's getting old. This is not new, nor is he the first President to do so of both parties. 🙄
Maybe I'll post it again. There is nothing he has done, that has not immediately been challenged by the Democrats and MSM. Nothing. This has been true since he was first elected in 2016. Even the border shutdown has been challenged and disputed by some! Go back through the posts in TMP on Iran see everything that was said initially that was wrong. But it was parroted from the good old MSM. Ok, off my soapbox Again. 😉 |
| 35thOVI | 02 Oct 2025 7:55 a.m. PST |
Use of federal troops by Presidents [" George Washington was the first president to exercise this authority when he federalized militias in Pennsylvania and surrounding states to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion. Frustrated with the state and local response, President Dwight D. Eisenhower deployed 1,200 Army troops to Little Rock and put them in charge of the 10,000 Arkansas National Guardsmen already on duty. Under federal orders, the same National Guardsmen who blocked the integration of Central High three days earlier now escorted the Little Rock Nine safely to class on September 25, 1957. That wasn't the last time that presidents were forced to call in the National Guard to integrate a school. In 1962, President John F. Kennedy activated the Mississippi National Guard in order to enforce the integration of the University of Mississippi. A year later, Kennedy deployed the Alabama National Guard to integrate the University of Alabamaagainst the wishes of Governor George Wallace. Horrified by the brutality authorized by Governor Wallace, President Johnson federalized the Alabama National Guard and sent additional U.S. Army troops to Selma. On July 24, 1967, President Johnson federalized 8,000 Michigan National Guard troops in Detroit and authorized an additional 5,000 federal troops to quell the riots. "Pillage, looting, murder, and arson have nothing to do with civil rights," said Johnson. "They are criminal conduct."
When the riots were finally suppressed on July 27, 43 people had been killed, 342 wounded and more than 1,400 buildings burned to the ground. President Johnson addressed the nation and urged calm but violence and rioting erupted in more than 100 American cities, including Baltimore, Maryland; Cincinnati, Ohio; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Wilmington, Delaware and Washington, D.C. To restore peace, Johnson activated 1,750 National Guard troops in the nation's capital in addition to 12,000 federal troops.
In Delaware, Governor Charles Terry refused to pull the National Guard out of Wilmington once the initial rioting was over. Instead, armed guardsmen patrolled the Black neighborhoods of Wilmington for nine months—the longest military occupation of an American city in history. In 1980, President Jimmy Carter activated the USCGR in response to an unprecedented refugee crisis out of Cuba. The 1992 L.A. riots raged on for three days. President George H.W. Bush invoked the Insurrection Act to federalize nearly 6,000 California National Guard troops. He also sent in FBI SWAT teams, federal riot control police and 4,500 soldiers.
More than 60 people died in the 1992 riots and property damage exceeded $1 USD billion."] Some others; [" * Andrew Jackson: In the 1830s, Jackson used military force in response to several domestic conflicts, including Nat Turner's slave rebellion in Virginia and violent labor disputes involving Irish immigrant workers. * Ulysses S. Grant: In the 1870s, Grant deployed federal troops to combat the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups seeking to suppress the rights of African Americans in the South.
*
* Rutherford B. Hayes: In 1877, Hayes deployed federal troops to break the Great Railroad Strike, a massive labor strike that shut down rail traffic across the country.
*
* Grover Cleveland: Cleveland deployed federal troops on multiple occasions. In 1886, he sent troops to quell anti-Chinese riots in Washington Territory, and in 1894, he used the military to end the Pullman railroad" ]
The beloved Abraham Lincoln
["
* New York City Draft Riots (1863): Following the implementation of a national conscription law, widespread rioting broke out in New York City. The law sparked resentment among working-class citizens who could not afford to pay for a substitute, unlike the wealthy.
* The riots devolved into mob violence, primarily targeting African Americans and federal authority.
* In response, Lincoln sent federal troops, including battle-weary soldiers from the recent Battle of Gettysburg, to restore order.
* The troops used force, including fixed bayonets and artillery, to quell the mobs. * Guerrilla warfare in the border states: In the border states like Missouri, Lincoln used federal troops to combat a widespread guerrilla menace. The Union army took drastic measures to counter the threat, targeting Confederate sympathizers and suspected guerrillas.
* Military trials for civilians: In 1862, Lincoln issued a proclamation authorizing military trials for civilians who discouraged enlistments or aided the Confederacy. Federal military authorities arrested thousands of individuals, holding them in military custody without trial.
Controversial suspension of habeas corpus
* Suspension for military security: Lincoln first suspended the writ of habeas corpus—a legal protection against unlawful imprisonment—in 1861 to protect key transportation routes in Maryland. This allowed the military to arrest and detain individuals suspected of disloyalty indefinitely, without having to present evidence in a court of law.
* Expansion of suspension: By 1862, Lincoln extended the suspension nationwide, targeting anyone who interfered with the draft, discouraged enlistments, or aided the Confederacy. The Supreme Court eventually challenged his authority, but Lincoln ignored the ruling and continued the practice.
* Indemnity Act: In 1863, Congress passed the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, which retroactively legalized Lincoln's prior suspensions and further restricted how individuals could sue the government.
* Civilian arrests: The suspension enabled the military to arrest and detain thousands of civilians across the North, especially critics of the administration and those suspected of Southern sympathies." ] Old Abe also gave us the draft and our first federal income tax. Bad Abe!! 😉 I should not have to go into FDR's Japanese US citizens in concentration camps. Nor Truman and his policies. God forbid that we include the use of troops by state governors, and the death that resulted. So what Trump is doing, is not unprecedented nor unique and has been done since the beginnings of the US government. |
| 35thOVI | 02 Oct 2025 8:06 a.m. PST |
Also hoping to stop this. You know, the "mostly peaceful protests" 🙄 [ "The estimated financial loss from the 2020 riots was between $1 USD billion and $2 USD billion in insured damages for the period between May 26 and June 8, 2020, primarily from arson, vandalism, and looting. This figure represents the most expensive civil disorder in American history by insured losses, exceeding the damage from the 1992 Los Angeles riots. " ] I believe higher, but bad enough. That does not include the deaths and injuries sustained. For which there is no adequate price. |
| SBminisguy | 02 Oct 2025 9:18 a.m. PST |
36 deaths and thousands of injuries, including 2000 cops |
| Tortorella | 02 Oct 2025 12:39 p.m. PST |
There have been far bigger riots than those after George Floyd. Way bigger. More damage, fatalities, etc. I question whether Trump can legally justify Stephen Miller's policies based on current conditions. What he is doing has no precedent based on the lack of comparable circumstances in America today vs the other examples. That is the big question..that and blaming a political party, which sounds like 1950s Woke Right. Not a Dem, I don't know Dem motives, but every Republican seems to think Dems want deliberate destruction of the country. BS. 35th, I have asked repeatedly for some measured evidence that combat efficiency was reduced by those DEI policies. Personally, I thought the senseless woke pronoun confusion was ridiculous, and some new standards made me uncomfortable. But where is the proof? Not just opinions and anecdotes? The army successfully addressed the recruiting challenge before Trump was elected. Did the policies help or hurt the enlistments?what about racism and sexism in the ranks, long time problems? I thought that enforcement of military law should have been enough, since these things are crimes, but the research indicates that these things have occurred inthe past, at least. |
| 35thOVI | 02 Oct 2025 1:08 p.m. PST |
Tort it is impossible to give that evidence, as we have not seen the DEI leadership in a contest of any real size. I can only go by what those serving in the actual army, (not NG) and the combat troops I have met and know, did NOT like it. 🤔
Although I guess it is possible an enemy, seeing one of our generals in the field, wearing a dress and makeup, just might cause them to laugh themselves to death. 😂 The military should be the military, not an experiment for DEI political theories. Our lives depend on it. |
| Legion 4 | 02 Oct 2025 2:21 p.m. PST |
I think Trump is the weakest foreign policy POTUS maybe ever. that's my opinion. Just as I think Putin had him for lunch in Alaska. And Trump has not ended Gaza or Ukraine as promised. Because he is not the right guy. Did Obama/Biden et al have a good foreign policy Not just no … But HELL NO … They gave away a lot of taxpayer money to Iran. Obama drew lines in the sand, but everyone ignored them, so he kept drawing and giving $ to Iran's terrorist regime. What happened in AL was standard political protocols. Trump was trying to "make a deal" to stop the war/killing. And at the same time a little show of force demonstration with F-35s and B-2, etc. Putin is former KGB, which based on his actions, he's also a gangster. Trump was "playing the game". To get things done with the very least amount of Blood & Treasure being spent. I don't know why anyone with any logic and reason does not see that ? Obama certainly was ineffective with Putin. And nobody even thought realistically in the WH/Dems that Biden[nor the DEI hire VP] could stand on his[her] own against Putin one on one[or even with all the prep and minders/handlers nearby!]. Putin and Iran saw and knew the US was at its weakest since Obama. Especially with geopolitics/realpolitik. Had not seen that since Carter. Trump is engaging. He talks to the media and will call anyone he thinks necessary. Biden couldn't do that. So what was Biden, et al, i.e. Blinken, Sullivan, etc. do geopolitically ? Anything effective … I can't think of anything ? He was a puppet of the left, woke progressive socialists funded by very wealthy supporters. Some on the left/Dem always talk about rich GOP Millionaires and Billionaires. Look in the mirror they have millionaires and billionaires too. Some are even in Congress. The woke left pushed the Biden admin, etc. to stand up for soft target bull*shit*. Again, Global warming/Climate change, open borders and all the flotsam & jetsam, etc. that came with it[which was the biggest disaster for the majority of Americans, since COVID or Vietnam?] DEI, CRT, LBGTQ+ "rights", boys playing on girls' sports teams and Tran males in girls' locker rooms, etc. Emasculating the military/warrior ethos, etc. with DEI, pronouns, etc. Our enemies were laughing at us, they saw the weakness, etc. and took advantage of it. Again and again predators go after the weak. Instead of concentrating on protecting Americans lives and actually doing something that could make our economic situation. all that other crap ! Trump is not the right guy ?!?!? Obama & Biden certainly weren't ! And again Trump has only been in the WH for 8 months. And has done more than either of those former "POTUSs'" ever did. Again the only hope for the US and our allies is this POTUS. And our enemies know he is not weak. The wars in Ukraine and Gaza will be over under the POTUS's time in the WH. Again Obama and Biden couldn't do what the POTUS has done to being back America. By cleansing the woke, progressive, DEI, CRT, etc. bull. The Sec of War[yes War, we have to let our enemies know we mean business, we will not be played with like they did with as they did Biden & Harris] just said as much the other day in Quantico to all that high-ranking brass. I don't think some will make the cut. Some RET Officers basically said, the Sec of War made it clear what was the Cdr's intent. And anyone who ever lead or commanded combat troops/units know it … SB +1 OVI +1 |
| Legion 4 | 02 Oct 2025 2:35 p.m. PST |
Give the Biden thing a rest, many of us agree. But like any precursor to what led to disaster. Biden, the Dems et al did so much damage. Much of what the POTUS and the GOP are trying to do damage control and looks like that will continue. And influences much of what this Admin will have to do to bring America back to homeostasis. And it won't happen over night. The army successfully addressed the recruiting challenge before Trump was elected. Did the policies help or hurt the enlistments?what about racism and sexism in the ranks, long time problems? I thought that enforcement of military law should have been enough, since these things are crimes, Again, it is clear that recruiting went up considerably after Biden/Harris were gone. The Troops know what a good leader is. Both Biden/Harris do not have the right stuff. I doubt they really ever did. They were not leaders, they were incompetent, feckless, etc. Lions led by rabbits … etc. Again and again so many RET Senior Officers made this clear. And again anyone who lead or commanded combat troops knows this … |
| SBminisguy | 02 Oct 2025 3:16 p.m. PST |
every Republican seems to think Dems want deliberate destruction of the country. BS. Sort of a two part answer. The Socialist wing of the Democrats is on the rise and they DO want to destroy America. They are open in saying that the Constitution is a harmful racist document and impediment to achieving their Socialist goals and progress, and the Constitution has to go. This includes prominent Democrat NYC Mayoral Candidate Mamdani. The Socialist Wing seems to have cowed the rest into submission except for a few surprising hold outs like Sen Fetterman. Many others are uncaring about the impact of their policies on the country as a whole or on many communities and States in their drive to gain power to achieve their own big beautiful visions of a Green Progressie Socially just America. Green policies crush energy production and lead to spirally costs? Don't worry about it. Socially Just "Criminal Reform" to "destigmatize and decriminalize" theft of less than $999 USD because the poor folks just are driven by survival need ,and that leads to rampant crime and business closure? Don't worry about it. Socially Just minimum wage laws to force restaurants to pay $20 USD per hour for a burger flipper leads to mass firings of burger flippers and many small restaurant and franchise closures? Don't worry about it. They are uncaringly harming the country with their actions. |
| Tango01 | 02 Oct 2025 10:28 p.m. PST |
The new grey zone battleground in Europe
link
Trump wants battleships back in the Navy link Armand |
| SBminisguy | 03 Oct 2025 7:31 a.m. PST |
The Battleship reactivation concept led to an ambitious re-fit design for USS Iowa class ships in the 1990s that inluded: Major Changes with Aft Turret Removal Missile Systems Replacement of Turret 3 with missile batteries: VLS cells: proposals ranged from 64 to over 300, capable of carrying Tomahawk (land attack), Standard SM-2 (air defense), or ASROC (ASW). Earlier (1950s–60s) concepts: twin-arm launchers for Talos/Tartar SAMs or Regulus II cruise missiles. 1980s concepts often showed Armored Box Launchers or canisters as an interim before VLS. Aviation Facilities Flight deck and hangar where the turret sat: At minimum: a landing pad and hangar for 2–4 SH-60 Seahawks (ASW/utility). Some versions: full "battlecarrier" deck for V/STOL aircraft (AV-8B Harrier, later F-35B-like concepts) with ski-jump. Also room for UAVs in later proposals. Phased-Array Radars / Combat System Installation of Aegis SPY-1 radars (sometimes one or two arrays fitted to a new deckhouse). Or New Threat Upgrade (NTU) combat suite with advanced fire control. Integration of AAW command and control roles, turning the ship into a flagship / missile defense node. Close-In & Point Defense Extra Phalanx CIWS mounts. Proposals for RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile) launchers in the 1990s. Expanded electronic warfare suites for defense against cruise missiles. Secondary Battery Changes Many plans removed most 5″/38 gun mounts, replacing them with missile/CIWS positions. A few concepts retained 1–2 dual 5″ mounts for gunfire support. Expanded Command & Flag Facilities Conversion of freed internal space into: Command centers for fleet or amphibious operations. Additional berthing and operations spaces for staff. Hull & Superstructure Modifications Enlarged aft deckhouse to support missile silos, aviation hangars, or phased-array antennas. In some drawings, the funnels and masts were reconfigured to reduce radar shadow and gun overpressure issues. Reinforced hull sections to carry the weight of VLS and aircraft facilities. Iowa Crew Numbers WW2 crew: ~2,700–2,800 1980s reactivation: ~1,550–1,600 (still huge compared to ~350 on a Ticonderoga cruiser) Target for 1990s proposals: ~800–1,000 (half of 1980s complement) 🔧 Automation & Crew Reduction Proposals Engineering & Propulsion Replace or modernize boiler/turbine controls with computer-driven monitoring (similar to Aegis cruisers). Centralized machinery control rooms, reducing boiler/engine watchstanders. Automated fuel, water, and lube oil systems. Weapons Handling Remove Turret 3 eliminated ~600 men by itself (each 16″ turret needed ~90–100 crew inside + hundreds more for ammunition supply). Replace manual ammunition trains with automated missile magazine and VLS systems. CIWS and RAM launchers were already largely automatic. Electronics & Sensors Advanced combat information centers (CICs) with fewer operators due to computer integration. Phased-array radars (SPY-1) need far fewer operators/maintainers than rotating radars + NTDS systems. Ship Operations Automating damage control sensors (fire detection, flooding alarms). Computerized navigation and helm stations, allowing watchstander cuts. Digital communications reduced manpower in signals/radio. Habitability & Support Modern galley and berthing improvements (automation in food service, laundry). Cut support personnel by outsourcing more functions to shore facilities when in port. BUT -- at the time there was no need for this overhaul, but the survivability of an armored ship in drone times is desirable. I an imagine such a ship would also have it's own dedicated drone complement and drone defenses. |
| Tortorella | 03 Oct 2025 12:29 p.m. PST |
Great stuff SB. I wonder if this latest comment derives from Trump' latest interest in the 1890s, extending on to the Great White Fleet. They were converted to modern, cleaner fuel oil in the 1980s but could/would still use millions of gallons per deployment, at probably around 8 weeks today. Taking out the turret must have dramatically reduced tonnage. In general much of what you mentioned would help lighten the ship. There would be any number of mounts for the new lasers that would eventually be installed. It would make a great platform for running the remote sea mine system also. But it's a big target, needs a lot of work, not much endurance. What the role? I don't know if the main battery guns really matter any more. It would be largely automated. Where does it give us an edge? |
| Legion 4 | 03 Oct 2025 1:31 p.m. PST |
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| Tango01 | 03 Oct 2025 10:50 p.m. PST |
After more than 50 years, Marines sunset Assault Amphibious Vehicle
link
link Armand |
| Tortorella | 04 Oct 2025 4:43 a.m. PST |
BTW …the Army began .the Future Soldier Preparedness Program more than two years ago in response to the recruiting crisis, based on the research they did that I have cited here before. DEI etc. was not the main reason for the low numbers, based on Army research. Not anecdotal…they did their homework. This program turned around recruiting and is directly responsibilities for most of the change. Over 60,000 went through it last year as I understand it and came out qualified both physically and mentally to join and serve.it is not some DEI patsy course, it was designed to prepare people to actually qualify to be soldiers. I don't know why this never got the news coverage it deserved, but I can guess. |
| SBminisguy | 04 Oct 2025 11:07 a.m. PST |
Great stuff SB. I wonder if this latest comment derives from Trump' latest interest in the 1890s, extending on to the Great White Fleet. At the core is just the recognition that things have changed, and maybe we need to come up with a new approach that is less carrier centric. So maybe you don't reactivate the USS Iowa, but concept a new surface combatant (what has sometimes been called a "Surface Control Ship") that is well armed and ARMORED but also designed for the drone era as well. Example, most militaries do NOT have AP warhead SSMs in their arsenals because most ships have not been designed to be armored for 50-60 years. |
| Legion 4 | 04 Oct 2025 6:52 p.m. PST |
I have heard all of that before … some of it I think is true. However, I also see new strong capable leadership from the CinC on down IMO had a big influence … |
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