"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic

About the Land of the Brain Wash and Barbarians…

Prisoners beaten, threatened with new sentences to force them to fight Russia's war against Ukraine

khpg.org/en/1608814858

Melitopol journalist Iryna Levchenko abducted in 2023 ‘found' imprisoned in Russian-occupied Donetsk

khpg.org/en/1608814856

Silence—as a form of torture

khpg.org/en/1608814857

Ukrainian political prisoner vanishes after being abducted by FSB instead of released from Russian prison

khpg.org/en/1608814855

Young Crimean couple could face life sentences for resistance to Russia's war against Ukraine

khpg.org/en/1608814849

Russian invaders abduct young Ukrainian, sentence her to 12.5 years for helping Ukraine

khpg.org/en/1608814843

Abducted Crimean Tatar father sentenced to 13 years for 'anti-Russian posts' and opposing Russia's war against Ukraine

khpg.org/en/1608814840

Children abducted and held for months until their fathers agree to fight Russia's war against Ukraine

khpg.org/en/1608814826

NATO and the Future of European Security: The German Question

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Armand

Interesting, Armand…Germany returns to great power status? How much have European countries surrendered their old rivalries?

The apparent lack of foresight and visionary planning at the top in the US is not permanent, IMO. The current US regime is transactional and political, other than maybe the Project 25 manifesto and Stephen Miller.

This does not mean that US institutions are not planning for future roles on the global stage, despite the ongoing purges.

Germany is a great power… not a military one at the moment, for reasons well known to all… any European rivalry is put aside in the face of the horrible Russian threat, and due to its geographical position and its excellent industry, Germany is key to confronting those barbarians…

It's true that the upper echelons of the United States are quite pendular… but reality strikes inevitably, and America will never cease to be the Soviets' number one enemy… all based on their fear, ignorance, and envy… It's a shame it took Trump so long to realize who Putin is… perhaps he innocently believed that with just his phone call, this murderer would understand… naive, at least Mr. President… one would expect him to be much better prepared for the subject…

Armand

Trump underestimated Putin. Putin, Iran, etc. were used to pushing the last admin around. The previous POTUS was suffering from dementia, senility, was a puppet for the woke left progressives, etc. That helped front his campaign. He was long over his expiration date. All he knew after 3 or so times before running for POTUS. That was his primary goal. Even as VP he was not even well thought of by Obama and many others in D.C.

His VP was a DEI hire, who didn't do well when trying to run for POTUS vs Biden. The only way either of them could be more worthless is if they were in a coma/stasis.

Again our enemies & allies were well aware of this threat to democracy/the USA/the West, etc. Some took advantage of it …

Trump may have made a wrong move or two playing 3d Chess vs. Putin. But it has been made clear that Putin X-KGB, who wants to regain the old imperial Russian Empire. If bad, very bad … to many including his own people. Who have died by the 10s of 100os with his war in Ukraine.

But with Putin, Iran, etc. they were playing Chess. However, Biden, his ideologue, naive', weak, leftist academic intellectual admin/crew of DEI/CRT supporters including most the Dems were play Checkers. And poorly …

We see the results of this left wing, liberal, socialists, etc. endeavor … It gets worse with more and more cover ups, crimes, etc. starting with Obama/Biden/HRC/the media on down is coming to light …

Trump may not be a bright shiny white knight[which some today would be considered racist, e.g. Sweeny, jeans, blonde hair, etc.] … But the POTUS and his Admin are light years ahead of the disaster and real threat to democracy. Historian will declare Biden, his Admin, Dems and the media were. Not only negatively affected the US and many places in the world. Resulting in much blood being on their hands. Being the worst of their numerous bugling's.

Roketsan unveils new weapon systems

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France and the UK unite their nuclear forces to defend Europe

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Ukraine upgrades U.S. M1A1SA tanks after armor weaknesses exposed on Ukrainian battlefield.

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Armand

Rumors are circulating that Trump is going to Alaska to surrender to Putin.

Maybe not like Helsinki, but Putin has no reason to change his plans. And I don't like him on American soil for this. Why not a neutral site?

Agreed. I have a bad feeling about this meeting.
If I was Ukraine, I would start to worry. Seems
they are never invited to discuss the war they are
involved in.

"Rumors are circulating that Trump is going to Alaska to surrender to Putin."

Yeah!!

Why it was just a couple of days ago he was surrendering to Azerbaijan and Armenia!! 🤬

Before that, Thailand and Cambodia and before that to
India and Pakistan and before that to the Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda. He surrendered to Iran!!!

With all these surrenders, we will soon be comparing him to some countries in Europe in WW2. 😱🙄

Subject: Trump Oversees Signing of Historic Azerbaijan-Armenia Peace Agreement

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By the way, since you all don't seem to be keeping up on it…. Or at least your media de jour isn't…

"President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine on Saturday flatly rejected the idea that Ukraine could cede land to Russia after President Trump suggested that a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia could include "some swapping of territories."

"Ukrainians will not gift their land to the occupier," Mr. Zelensky said in a video address from his office in Kyiv,"

Not sure why you oppose having it Russia, but have no fear, the dying will probably continue unabated. 🙄

And what Trump suggested to swap?
Kursk, Belgorod and Rostov-on-Don against Lugansk, Donetsk and Crimea?
Why?
Or does he propose surrendering and giving part of Ukraine to the aggressor as a trophy for aggression? Strength trumps justice?

And why you talk about Azerbaijan and Armenia?
Did someone blame Trump for this? Who did Trump surrender to?

Btw.. Has Russian aggression stopped? Trump's time given to Putin is already up. Or did Putin show Trump the finger once again?

Sho Boki + 1

Armand

Sho Boki

What is your plan for peace? Do you have one? Or do you believe that the Ukrainians can hold out indefinitely?

If I thought the Ukraine had a chance to push the Russians out and more, I would urge them to go on. But all the Russians have to do, is go on the defensive and the Ukrainians will spend their troops and equipment uselessly and the Russians will still have the territory.

I know you hate the Russians and all things Russian, you have made that very, very clear. You also hate Trump.

But hate will not end this and Trump is the only one who is attempting to end this. Neither side will have a better opportunity to end this.

All by the way, check those I listed. You will find ceasefires and peace treaties.

"You also hate Trump."

Not at all. But I am very disappointed. The weakest President of America in this century. He is surrendering in a war that Biden was winning without much effort. Which will inevitably lead to the next, much bigger war, for which Putin is already preparing.

But of course I could be wrong, maybe all these rumors about giving away Ukrainian lands and trampling on international law are not true, and Trump stands firmly for justice and demands the departure of Russian troops, collaborators, and separatists from Ukrainian territory and the payment of contributions before sanctions are eased. We will see..

You still did not answer my question

Rumors are circulating that Trump is going to Alaska to surrender to Putin.

Hyperbole yes ? Or it is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard in a very long time …

OVI+1

And what many have understand … the US/Trump are the last best hope to end Putin's war. And not just allow it to be another truce.

Again as well as the last POTUS, his incompetent Admin etc. because of the folly/foolishness/academic intellectual ideologues are basically why there are wars in Ukraine and Gaza … As I have said before, predators e.g. Putin, Iran, islamists, etc. go after the weak. I.e. Biden, his admin, some in Congress, etc. proved to have chosen very poor priorities.

And the predators took advantage on the weak …

We know they couldn't do anything but make things worse …

"You still did not answer my question"

To which one?
I answered to your questions "What is your plan for peace? Do you have one?".
There are only one possible solution and we hope that Trump will follow it instead of surrender.

If you wait for answer to your question "Or do you believe that the Ukrainians can hold out indefinitely?" then yes, with our help they can and they win. Without our help they can't and they lose. Putin is fighting against us through Ukraine.

-----

"the US/Trump are the last best hope to end Putin's war…. predators e.g. Putin, Iran, islamists, etc. go after the weak."

Yes, and Putin goes after the Trump. Will Trump resist or surrender? So far Putin and all the World can see only weakness and indecisiveness.. or maybe betrayal instead?

Putin has had the edge over Trump since Helsinki. He knows how to manage him and get what he wants. Trump was the guy who said he a the plan to end the war. Some believed this, but I think it was BS. While I don't consider Trump weak, Biden did a better job walking the tightrope in Ukraine, supporting that nation, holding off Putin, uniting NATO. He also was the first POTUS to tell China the US would defend Taiwan.For all his failings, Biden at the beginning at least did more to hold off these predators. Trump does not appear to be taken seriously in some of these matters. He is in over his head with Putin as he was at Helsinki.

Biden's Afghan fiasco was a hot mess, but Trump helped set up the disaster by thinking he could cut a deal with brutal terrorists, who promptly ignored him and his deal.

Some scraps from the internet, how exactly can Trump surrender or betray.
Based on his past behavior…
______

"If Ukraine doesn't agree to the Trump-Putin peace plan, what will Trump do?"

"Well, for example, Hegseth pauses arms deliveries for the 3rd time, or the White House announces that it will no longer even sell weapons to Ukraine, and pressure will be increased on Zelensky to resign, for example."

"….or says that Ukraine is the main/only obstacle to achieving peace and everyone who supports Ukraine supports the continuation of the war….which he did not start, because this is Biden's war…which would never have happened if he had been president….and he cannot allow this stubbornness of Ukraine and Zelensky to continue…because so many people die every day….but he achieved such a great breakthrough and a beautiful agreement with Putin….and in the name of peace, he twists restrictions, tariffs, bans, etc. on those countries that "do not want peace and support the continuation of the war"…"

If you believe Biden was anything but a dementia riddled puppet, with no idea of what was going on, yet alone, where he even was at any given time, I can only say: Wow.

So you and others believe that the Ukrainians can hold out and recapture their lost and occupied land? You all say Putin is a madman. Does a madman care how many of his people die to achieve his goal? If you say yes(which you all seem to believe), then the Russian/allies will eventually push through and occupy the rest of the Ukraine. Population ratios are on Russias side.

You keep commenting on the weakness of Trump. Are the Europeans so weak, that they cannot stand up to Russia if they decided to advance into Europe? Russia is not the size of the Soviet Union, not even the size of Czarist Russia. Surely Europe is not that weak!

If they are and Putin wants European domination(as you all seem to believe) and Trump is "his puppet", why not just blitz Europe now? At least if he wants the Baltics, Poland and a few others… what's stopping him now, that would not be there after the Ukraine falls? 🤔 Well possibly WW3. But that would insinuate that it stops him now too. But would a madman care about his people and WW3? I mean he personally has bunkers. So he survives… which is all a madman would want. 🙄

Logic says: Russia has not been able to push through the Ukraine in over 3 years. Why would anyone believe he could push through Europe?

Ukraine would be gone by now without American and European help. NATO was re-energized by the threat, the early Biden played a role. His advisors were qualified. Again Trump is not a puppet, just not the smart guy he claims. He never had a plan and still does not. He does not know how to crack Putin anymore than the rest of the west does. It's not an easy problem, his usual bluster does not work, Hesgeth is way out of his depth on this war.

Again, Biden was not entirely out of it at the start and helped unite NATO. His dementia progressed. I think Putin knew he just had to hold out for the election. Remember, Trump controlled Congress even though he was out of office.

Tort, I remind you; Trump's first term, no war in Ukraine. Obama and Biden, war in Ukraine.

If Putin perceived weakness, he would have taken the Ukraine and Baltics. Why not?

Was it not Obama who whispered to the Russians, wait till after the election?

"Obama tells Russia's Medvedev more flexibility after election"

And

"Biden predicts Russia ‘will move in' to Ukraine, but says ‘minor incursion' may prompt discussion over consequences"

🤔 weakness?

Do I believe the Ukraine will give up more land? Yes.. unfortunately. But better land now, as opposed to the country later. Which in my opinion, is the future if this war continues.

So you too believe that Trump will surrender and betray?
Instead of negotiating with Ukraine and telling the aggressor what to do, he negotiates with the aggressor and tells the victim what to do.
Predator, like Legion 4 says, goes after the weaker and agree with other predators-aggressors.

"So you too believe that Trump will surrender and betray?"

Trump cannot force either side to surrender. If either side is not happy, they can keep fighting. We can put pressure, but they can and have pretty much done as they please so far.

But as I said and have said for a while, Ukraine will more than likely lose land. Will the land be worth the cost to the Russian people? Let the Russian people answer that. Will it be better than losing the whole country? The Ukrainians can answer that. Will it give the Ukrainians time to regroup and retool? Yes.

But no, Trump cannot force either to surrender.

what are ukraines terms for a ceasefire etc?

i wish president trump would stop talking about the casualties from both sides .yes it is a concern/shame but it makes him appear willing to accept (publicly) a lesser possible deal to stop the war ,which is what putin is picking up on ,

In fact, he can either help bring peace or, by helping Putin, betray and kill America's allies. All signs indicate that he intends to betray. Which will inevitably lead to a major war in Europe, as the international security and legal system collapses with Trump's help. The aggressors will be reassured that crime pays off and aggression brings profits.

Pray tell, short of a WW, how do you force Russia out of the Ukraine they occupy?

The Ukraine is not worth a WW. Maybe to those close to Russia, but doubt there are many in the U.S. who feel it worthy.

Obviously the Ukrainians can't push them out. They for all intents and purposes already ceded the Crimea under Obama.

If they cannot push the Russians out of the Donbas either… which they have not, who is going to step up and do it? Germany, France, UK, Poland, Estonia, some combined army of Central Europe? None have in over 3 years. All I see and hear from Europe is, "Keep fighting Brave Ukrainians!! Don't let the tyrant win anything!". Yes and keep dying, because you may be keeping him from looking our way. 😱

Now is the time for it to cease. It is f-ing lousy that Putin will benefit. But the longer this goes on, the worse for the Ukrainians!

Unless the Good Fairy intervenes. But she has been pretty quiet since cinderella.

But like I said: Trump can make neither side surrender, if they don't want to. Contrary to what you have said.

So again, how do the Ukrainians NOT give up territory?

Before you say I'm wrong, here is the situation currently.
Some Russian advances. No Ukrainian gains. Economic decline. All …. and DEATH.

"Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Incremental Gains:
Russia has been slowly expanding its control in the east, particularly around the Donetsk region, taking some villages and towns.
High Cost:
These gains are achieved through intense fighting and at a high cost in terms of casualties and resources.
Stalemate:
Despite the gains, the war is largely described as a stalemate, with neither side able to achieve a major breakthrough.
Limited Success of Counteroffensives:
Ukrainian counteroffensives have not yielded significant territorial gains in the past year.
Focus on attrition:
The war is increasingly characterized by attrition, with both sides attempting to wear down the other through sustained fighting and artillery barrages.
Economic Impact:
The war is taking a toll on both economies, with high inflation, defense spending, and damage to infrastructure. "

Why do you always want to push, force out, conquer territory, etc.?
Let the Russian Federation do it. As Trump says, the ratio of losses is 16:1 but the ratio of population is 3:1. Ukrainians exchange territory for Russian losses because they will get it back anyway.

This is a war of economies, the Russian economy against all Western economies. Russia's decline is predetermined, but Trump is trying to save it and therefore a world war may begin. If Trump were to help Ukraine seriously, Russia would collapse on its own in a few years and the war would end. And a world war would not follow.

Helping Ukraine will be cheaper than an otherwise inevitable world war. And only in this case will Russia ultimately pay for the war damages, and not the rest of the world.

Sho,

Don't agree. All Russia has to do is go on the defensive and they will hold on to the territory taken. The Ukrainians do not have the men/women to sustain the, at least 2:1 casualty ratio necessary to go on the offensive again.

Also, I've never heard the President say the loss ratio of Russians to Ukrainians is 16:1. I doubt anyone really knows what the true losses on both sides are.

Vietnam do not have the men/women to sustain the ratio…
Afghanistan also… Greece against Persia also… Israel against Arab States also… Japan vs Russia also… there are pleny of little countries which stand (and win) against much bigger invaders… you know that…

Everybody knows (even the Russians) that their losses are near the millon of casualties…But that never mattered to the Russian Nazis… what really matters to them is that their economy could collapse at the end of the year… the loss of their pirated oil exports… the persecution and confiscation of their oligarchs, the economic and political sanctions… that's what could corner them… negotiate with China a good deal for them but that leaves the Russians out and without their support… supplying Ukraine with the defensive weapons it needs through third countries…

The Russians hate and fear the US… they've done so since Stalin, and if the US really takes a stand, no oligarch is going to risk losing his life or that of his family in a nuclear war… I would fear the support currently given to Israel against Arab terrorists much more than the support it could give to Ukraine…

Armand

This is what I am seeing.

"Key Points and Summary – After more than three years of war, a new survey indicates a significant shift in Ukrainian public opinion, with a majority (56%) now willing to accept a "compromise" involving territorial concessions to end the conflict with Russia.

The poll, conducted by Kyiv-based pollsters, shows only 12.8% of Ukrainians now believe in fighting until all land is reclaimed.

-This growing desire for peace comes as Russia continues to escalate its attacks, launching what Ukraine called the "largest aerial attack of the war" over the weekend, involving nearly 540 drones and missiles, and as hopes for a decisive intervention from the Trump administration have faded."

A decisive intervention by the U.S. under any administration, was never going to happen.

Subject: 56 Percent of Ukrainians Want ‘Compromise' to End War with Russia


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Meanwhile on the other side:

"There are nuanced and sometimes conflicting findings on Russian public opinion concerning the war in Ukraine and the desire for peace, according to recent polls.

Support for peace talks
A majority of Russians (61% in a February 2025 poll) indicate a desire for peace negotiations rather than a continuation of military action. This represents an increase in the proportion of people advocating for peace talks compared to previous polls.
Russians indicate a desire for peace talks driven by the human cost of the war, including the deaths of soldiers and the impact on household costs.
Support for the war
Despite the increasing interest in peace negotiations, a significant portion of the Russian population (78% in a February 2025 poll) continues to support the military actions in Ukraine. This suggests a disconnect between the desire for peace and the backing of the ongoing military campaign.
Public support for the war is also fueled by a sense of patriotism and nationalism, coupled with narratives portraying the conflict as defensive or necessary in the face of perceived threats.
Conditions for peace
While Russians show increasing interest in peace talks, they remain unwilling to make major concessions to Ukraine, particularly regarding the return of annexed territories.
Polls show that support for peace talks significantly decreases if it involves returning occupied territories to Ukraine.
Challenges in assessing public opinion
It's crucial to acknowledge the inherent challenges in accurately assessing public opinion in authoritarian regimes like Russia, where dissent can lead to severe consequences.
Factors such as state censorship, self-censorship, and potential response bias may influence survey results.
Experts emphasize that official polls in Russia might not fully reflect the true sentiments of the population, although some studies attempt to address these concerns by analyzing data from independent pollsters and employing various methodologies.
In conclusion, while a majority of Russians express a desire for peace talks to end the war in Ukraine, this sentiment is often conditional on the retention of Russian territorial gains. Support for the war remains high, shaped by nationalistic narratives and a sense of threat, despite increasing concerns about the human and economic costs of the conflict. It is important to interpret Russian public opinion data cautiously due to the limitations and complexities of conducting surveys in an authoritarian environment. "

Lastly it was asked about what Trump was doing about his threats. Well he had started about a week ago.

"Trump orders India tariff hike to 50% for buying Russian oil"

First hitting those who buy Russian oil. Right after that was when the Russians asked to talk again.

Thus where we are until the first talks.

I can believe that. After three years of being under attack and the high loss of life, I am sure many Ukrainians want it over even if it means give up some land. Putin will claim victory at the end of this.

Yes, and Putin goes after the Trump. Will Trump resist or surrender? So far Putin and all the World can see only weakness and indecisiveness.. or maybe betrayal instead?

Putin will not go after Trump. Trump now more clearly understands how evil and ruthless Putin is. Trump is not indecisive, you must be thinking about Biden and his admin. Trump may say and do things to test for reactions. But he knows how to alter a situation as things evolve/devolve.

Trump is the only chance for the war in Ukraine to stop. With some sort workable end game for both sides. However, with Putin's master plan of eventually wanting to reclaim the areas of the Russian Empire. These peace talks will take time. And Putin does not care about how many or who die.

Plus, as always, we have no idea what is going on behind the curtain. And may never know.

My $ is on Trump working things out … but there will be compromises. And that is the rub. No matter what Putin will control the Crimea.

Sometimes I see that those who don't live in the US and watches the news as often as I do. You get a bit of a skewed view of what is really going here … As not only does the POTUS have to contend with situations outside the US. But there is a major virtual civil war going on in the USA. Between the Right & Left factions in the US Federal, State and even local govt's …

OVI +1

What Weapons Ukraine Could Receive if Azerbaijan Lifts Its Arms Export Ban

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EU Releases New $1.75 USDB Payment from Frozen Russian Assets for Ukraine's Defense and Recovery

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Armand

Legion I agree. 😉

"Sometimes I see that those who don't live in the US and watches the news as often as I do. You get a bit of a skewed view of what is really going here … As not only does the POTUS have to contend with situations outside the US. But there is a major virtual civil war going on in the USA. Between the Right & Left factions in the US Federal, State and even local govt's …"

If he goes to the bathroom they will disagree with whichever he does. "He went #1!! He should have went #2!! This is a threat to Democracy!!!! 😱 He is doing it to oppress minorities!! His #1 is a #2 on the rest of us!! His #1 is another insurrection!!! 🤬"

Yes, good call Legion. Virtual civil war.

Interesting if the telegraph is correct. Now they would agree to concessions

"The Telegraph reported:

"Volodymyr Zelensky told European leaders that they must reject any settlement proposed by Donald Trump which sees them giving up Ukrainian land they still hold – but that Ukrainian territory in Russia's control could be on the table."

Yes, the door opens a crack….

Germany's New "Sparta" Mothership Drone to Begin Serial Production in Ukraine

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From the Front Lines of Ukraine: A Soldier's Warning to America

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Armand

Will Trump get played by Putin? Europe is worried

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Armand

I will say: all the experts who have attacked the President about this and his weaknesses, have negotiated no peace treaties, including the Ukraine. Although the MSM and others give him no credit for them, he has negotiated four or five ceasefires and peace treaties in the just over six months of his second term. All and with the exception of Isreal, never hit the Iranian nuclear program.

Will Trump get played by Putin? Are you kidding me?!?

The Europeans' plan has been obvious since DJT became president:

1. BLOCK peace deals and use WAR to reach their goal of access to cheap Russian energy under Euro control.

2. They have been trying since JANUARY to manipulate the US into direct conflict with Russia since all their plans to oust Putin have failed, and Trump wanted peace. So they pump up Zelensky and move publicly and behind the scenes in coordination with Trump's domestic opponents in the Democrat Party to block peace, pressure Trump and narrow his options.

3. The goal of this war with the US and Russia is the collapse of Putin and the emergence of a pliable Pro-Europe leader. The US will do the heavy fighting with minor NATO support (because face it -- that's all they can do now) in the expectation that the US will defeat Russia and topple Putin *without* escalation to nuclear weapons.

4. In the aftermath the Euros will swoop into Russia to install a Pro-Euro regime and proceed to grab all the natural resources they need on the cheap or for FREE under the guise of "reparations to Ukraine."

5. A diminished US will be left gasping for air after a bloody and expensive fight and unable to oppose them.

6. so Europe's leaders think they will achieve Cheap lasting energy and access to Russian natural resources that will boost their economy, and a diminished US that will be unable to oppose them -- plus the great likelihood that Trump and "MAGA" will lose support for having broken a key promise on ending the Ukraine War.

7. What that means for China-Taiwan, they don't care. Anything else as repercussions, they don't care. What this means in human costs -- how many killed, injured and scarred for life, they don't care. They mass destruction that would happen -- looks like construction contracts to them!

Why do I think that? Just look at what they did in Libya. Khadaffi had ended terrorism and paid reparations, he had publicly ended his WMD programs and was a stable authoritarian presence in North Africa. He was a "good boy."

…except he wasn't a "good boy" when it came to oil! He started to grant oil concessions to CHINA which undercut European (and US) oil concessions and contracts. So under a thin pretext of intervening to "save the people" during the Arab Spring, NATO and the US launched an unprovoked war on Libya. This surprise attack completely collapsed the Khadaffi regime and the Libyan military which was unable to cope with the attack. Khadaffi was impaled on a pipe by Islamists and his corpse hauled through the streets.

Europe got it's Oil! Yep, Dutch Royal Shell and Total Elf Fina got their contracts, as did the US Haliburton Group btw (perhaps why Bush and Obama became pals??), while China got edged out.

The cost? They didn't care.

1. Libya descended into Civil War costing upwards of 250,000 deaths.

2. Mass refugee flows that destabilized Europe

3. Islamist factions took over half the country, and with US-Obama help sent weapons and militants into Syria to support pro-Islamist forces.

4. Hardened Iran's resolve to gain nuclear weapons since they see that a leader who "played ball" and ended terrorism, paid reparations and ended their WMD program was still toppled and killed. So why negotiate?

5. Oh yeah -- it also fueled the Russo-Ukraine conflicts since NATO was used for the first time as an OFFENSIVE ALLIANCE even when no member state had been attacked or was even at threat. So the war directly led to heightened suspicions and paranoia about NATO and the amorality of European leaders who talk about Peace and Freedom while launching a cynical and brutal war of Blood for Oil to meet their own material goals.

6. And -- the Euros relied upon US POWER to achieve THEIR goals. Obama didn't need to be manipulated though, he was happy to topple as many secular regimes in the Middle East as possible and what did he care for the cost? He got to look tough and all that, got to use Libyan islamists as foot soldiers in Syria armed with Libyan guns.

So yeah, they are nasty enough to try this since they have done it before.

SB yes there are those who want no peace and would be happy to see this go on. The reasons vary, but money is always one of the top reasons for sure. Trump haters are another. Of course the others you mentioned as well. These people are on both sides and many countries.

A peace or ceasefire may not happen. I would give it at best a 40% chance. But at least Trump keeps trying, which is better than the previous 3 years.

SB & OVI +1

OVI +1

This is an insane war -- not only should it NOT have happened if the Biden Admin had shown a *little* spine to Putin, it should have been settled immediately. The US and EU should have WELCOMED the Ukraine-Russia peace talks in Ankara (with Israel's help) and ENDED it in March 0f 2022.

Instead they KILLED THE PEACE DEAL and did everything they could to inflame and prolong the war, and everything they can to block a peace deal now.

This is so contrary to EVERY conflict of the last 50 years that we need to carefully examine WHY and WHO BENEFITS.

Why the US military refuses to adopt bullpup rifles

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Armand

SBS. – Who benefits and why ?

How about Ukraine recovering it's territory and Russia being dissuaded from attacking, say, Moldova, Georgia, etc. ?

I think that's the only thing Europeans want apart from peace. Peace and Justice.

It's hard to pin the war on Biden, or take those 2022 peace talks seriously. It should be obvious by now what Putin wants. The mass murders of captive civilians at Bucha at the time made the 2022 peace talks a joke. Along with the targeting of schools and hospitals, rape, executing POWs, etc. Brutal murders akin to Hamas on Oct 7.

What deal with Putin will be just and lasting to the benefit of Ukraine? Security will never be assured. The Trump treaty with the Taliban lasted about five minutes. I think he gets Putin a little better now, but for Ukraine this could be the real estate deal from hell after unimaginable suffering and brutality.

SBS. – Who benefits and why ?

How about Ukraine recovering it's territory and Russia being dissuaded from attacking, say, Moldova, Georgia, etc. ?

I think that's the only thing Europeans want apart from peace. Peace and Justice.

1. Status Quo: Ukraine would NOT have lost or gained anything since the lines were redrawn when Russia took the Donbas in 2014. Under the terms of the deal that I can find, Russia would have withdrawn back to its start-line.

2. As for point 2, dunno, obviously Putin was NOT dissuaded from attacking Georgia and Ukraine under Obama, seems to be BEEN dissuaded from attacking under Trump, and NOT dissuaded from attacking under Biden. Perhaps strong leadership and will matter???

3. Europeans -- do they really want peace? I don't think so -- I think they want control and energy, and thought this was the way to do it. They certainly didn't want peace when they launched their unprovoked war on Libya to get oil.

IF they want peace, they would have supported the March 2022 Ukraine-Russia peace deal to end the fighting quickly with status quo borders. At that time they could have moved to dissuade Russia by forming a separate non-NATO deal with Ukraine and armed them to the teeth. Why didn't they?

It's hard to pin the war on Biden, or take those 2022 peace talks seriously.

Are you kidding me? The US Biden Admin, which we now are seeing a picture emerge of a true Oligarchic regime run by senior politicos and power movers both in and outside the Democrat Party who used the "autopen" to issue orders and Biden was barely cognizant of events.

Regarding Ukraine specifically, Biden and his handlers constantly signaled weakness. They took no substantive action when Putin staged is "exercise" on the UKrainian border. Then when asked about a possible Russian invasion, Biden mumbled that the US WOULD NOT TAKE ACTION against a "Limited Russian incursion."

Shades of SecState Dulles' 1950 quip about South Korea falling outside the "security sphere of the US" and Amb, Glaspie's 1990 quip about "how Arab nations settle their disputes is of no concern to the US."

Biden's statement was a greenlight, he told Putin the US would not oppose a Russian invasion!

And then remember what Team Biden's first reaction was? They finger wagged Putin and then OFFERED EXILE TO ZELENSKY!

As for the Peace Talks, you don't want to take them seriously because it undermines your image of the events and the role the Democrats and Europeans played in fueling the war. I mean, really, how the fruck can you know the peace deal would have failed? DO you have ANY evidence of that?

What was happening was Zelensky was facing a long drop with a short rope around his neck. The US and the Europeans were running around lik a buncha chickens with a fox outside the wire, waving their arms in a panic -- and his "ally" had just offered to fly him to exile. To his credit he stayed and motivated his people to fight.

AND THEY WON. They stopped the Russian invasion, and Putin wanted out. A deal was being made.

Then Biden and the Europeans KILLED IT by threatening Zelensky that if he cut a peace deal with Russia, they would cut HIM off at the knees and sever all aid and leave him to dangle. So he chose to continue fighting.

At every step where there could be peace, the steered things back to War with no achievable war aim. That's where YOU need to ask yourself WHY did they? And stop all the "oh we must save brave Ukraine" thinking and assume the ones prolonging the war do NOT care about Ukraine except as means to attaining their own goals.

What deal with Putin will be just and lasting to the benefit of Ukraine? Security will never be assured. The Trump treaty with the Taliban lasted about five minutes.

Did we trust North Korea after securing an Armistice? No. we defended and armed up South Korea, built and manned the DMZ and secured that country's security in the face of constant North Korea threats. Why not that same path?

Furthermore, Trump was NOT PRESIDENT when the Taliban broke their deal with the US. Trump negotiated a deal backed by US support guarantees to the Afghan government, and he put the Taliban on notice that the US would come after thier leadership if they broke the deal -- like handing the leader of the Taliban a satellite photo of his personal home…

I think he gets Putin a little better now, but for Ukraine this could be the real estate deal from hell after unimaginable suffering and brutality.

He gets that on the face of it, Putin has no incentive to make a peace deal because on the current path HE WILL TAKE UKRAINE! Gone are the gloriously bad propaganda stories about Ukraine's amazing combat offensives, and we see a more realistic picture emerging of a Ukraine in a death spiral to defeat -- the same picture many saw in MARCH 2022!

Like this article from today…

Ukraine has lost. Britain must now prepare for Russia's next onslaught

It is time to put outrage, passion and wishful thinking aside and face facts: in what may well go down in history as the West's gravest foreign policy failing of the 21st century, Ukraine has lost the war against Russia.

The conflict is likely to come to an end sooner rather than later – and on terms that favour Putin. Britain must accept that the Ukraine war is all but over…

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The deal Ukraine could have had in 2022 may have been the BEST deal they would ever have gotten, except for the one Trump tried to broker in February that the Europeans and Democrats in the US and Zelensky deliberately killed.

So, anyways, slava Ukraine -- too bad nobody except Trump really cares about you…

If Putin would make a deal and it brought peace I would not be surprised that Putin would use the time to reorganize and rearm and then attack Ukraine again.

SBS, more than once you have said Russia took the Donbas in 2014. It didn't, that was the Crimea. The Donbas was still under Ukraine until the recent invasion apart from some Russian "volunteers".