"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic

By any measure we are getting off cheap. It's the Ukranians who are suffering. But we are helping to destroy the Russian conventional military in a way we never could have imagined. Reagan out spent the Soviets on tech weapomry to help bring them. In my mind this is similar.

There are signs that a new Congress could end support for the Ukranians though. So we will find out how long soon enough…

I don't think the west can afford to end support for Ukraine.
Whether the people who form congress realise this, that is the question.

Agreeded @ Andy and Tortorella

Germany Denmark Norway to finance purchase of 16 Zuzana 2 8x8 howitzers for Ukraine

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Armand

Armor: Ukraine Receives A Unique Gift

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Armand

I'm not so sure being less prone to catastrophic failure from penetrative is quite the multiplier that article claims.
Any tank is better than no tank though.
I'm sure the Ukrainians will make good use of these.

Thanks Armand.

"Armor: Ukraine Receives A Unique Gift"

See Slovenia to arm Ukrainian forces with 28 M-55S tanks topic.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Putin saying Europe can still have gas supply!
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LOL!

Is he starting to 'feel the pinch', now that his gameplan has failed.. or just a 'side-bet'?

Many in Europe, now taking heavy hits in economies… with consequent hits on a personal level… costs, prices, etc.

But whiners tend to forget WW2… with WAR, call up, rationing, shortages and all that went with it.

Is stopping Putin… or successor, worth it? Looking at devastation and losses… YES!

Major Corporations / Multinationals CAN take the hits… they will get it back later…just don't want to… looks bad on yearly balance report. Profits from 'shortage price rises'… incredible… and populace getting 'restive'. Strategy working? Will depend on European / US Government resolve to do what is needed.

Might be just Putin's attempt to forment dissent in the European population – some parts of which would be happy in continuing to get cheap Russian natural gas. However, the obvious drawback of remaining reliant on Russian gas is leaving the door open to further possibilities of energy extortion.

In the meanwhile, the NATO meeting yesterday seemed to be demonstrate members being still rather committed to supporting Ukraine with material help.

In the meanwhile, the NATO meeting yesterday seemed to be demonstrate members being still rather committed to supporting Ukraine with material help.

IMO at this point … they have no choice. They want to limit Putin ability to be a threat to NATO, etc. If NATO stops support now … Putin gets a de facto win.

And NATO appears "ineffective". Fortunately, the Ukrainian Forces with proper NATO, etc., support is "formidable" on the battlefield vs the no longer "vaunted" Russian military.

Poll Finds Westerners In No Mood For Concessions To Russia In Ukraine

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Armand

France Commits More Aid To Ukraine

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Armand

Macron stepped out of line with his statement on not using nukes.

More reinforcements…

Germany to deliver Ukraine with more PzH 2000 howitzers and MARS II rocket launchers

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Ukraine army recuparates PzH2000 self-propelled howitzers repaired in Lithuania

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France will provide Ukraine with three LRU M270 rocket launcher vehicles

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Ukraine Army receives first Diehl Defence IRIS-T air defense system from Germany

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Armand

"Go team Go !" The more NATO can give the Ukraine the better …

Growing Fears Russia May Attack Britain's Undersea Cables

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Armand

It would be an attack on NATO?

I think so … That may be a can of snakes Putin won't want to kick over.

‘Star Wars' actor Mark Hamill sends 500 drones to Ukraine

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The U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Deployed Just Miles From Ukraine's Border And Is Ready To Cross The Border If The Situation Escalates

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Armand

The 101 is not the only US or NATO unit there who can do this, AFAIK. Unlikely it will happen, but we know we have to be prepared for this and a number of other OPLANs.

Germany to supply Ukraine with one IRIS-T SLM air defense missile system and 10 engineer vehicles

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Germany leases Israeli UAVs to thwart Russian strikes

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Armand

Poland Considering Building A Wall On The Russian-Kaliningrad Border

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Armand

Finland Will Permit NATO To Deploy Nuclear Weapons On Its Border With Russia

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Is Iran Now At War Against Ukraine?

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U.S. Considering Sending HAWK Air Defense Equipment To Ukraine

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Armand

No matter what the US/NATO and others need to continue support the Ukraine. Putin and Russia have to be defeated. And they should remain a pariah state. At least to the West. They need to be punished. For their unprovoked invasion & their many war crimes. This is not 21st Century behave, at least in Europe/the West.

+1 Legion

US sends more military aid to Ukraine that includes ammunition, mines and satellite antennas

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Armand

Norway's Military On Raised Alert Level To Protect Energy Links In Response To Ukraine War

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Armand

The US/NATO, etc. has gone too far to turn back. Russia's military, if you'd call it that, has been seriously attrited. In men & material. We see it every day … Who will they send into the meat grinder next? Orphans, old ladies, etc.?

"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?"

My guess ….. until the truth comes out.

B

Concerns…Only 27 per cent of GOP now support continuing aid to Ukraine. Their large media ally raises questions as well. They will likely control spending soon.

Will we cut back? I am not going political here, but this could change the war.

Forgot link. This is a Fox affiliate, not the big stars in NYC.

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Tortorella wrote -

They will likely control spending soon. Will we cut back? I am not going political here, but this could change the war.

Not immediately. IIRC, the new Congress will not be sworn in until 3 January 2023. Plenty of time for last minute fiscal mischief within the rump Congress. Then, there is always the option for the White House and our unaccountable bureaucracy of creatively "re-appropriating" funds within the federal budget.

B

Concerns…Only 27 per cent of GOP now support continuing aid to Ukraine.

Got a link ? Inquiring minds want to know.

You can always count on Turkey…

Turkey Says Finland, Sweden Have Not Done Enough To Join NATO

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Armand

Reports in the news said, something like, that the current top US leadership is trying to broker some sort of peace between the Ukraine and Russia. That was also their position from the very beginning it was reported.

Why would the Ukraine want to make a deal with Putin, when they have the Russian military on its heels/on the run ?

I think the idea was from Day 1 that the US didn't want to upset Putin. And maybe not spend the $ to support the Ukraine? To use that money on many other programs/projects. The list is long and poorly prioritized.

Putin read our weak incompetent leadership with little difficulty. So did Iran and the CCP …

So, I guess the US should give TX back to Mexico … ? I mean we wouldn't want to upset anybody. Or the Russians want Alaska back too.

The territory Putin invaded was the Ukraine. And the Ukraine wants it back.

Ukraine expects positive answer from Germany for the supply of Leopard 2 tanks

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Dingo 2 4x4 armored vehicles donated by Germany are on the way to Ukraine

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Armand

Legion the link on the GOP followed my last post.

We have spent a fortune on supplying weapons to Ukraine. The objective result is right in front of us. The only protest in the US has come from the same politicians and pundits who appear on Russian news programs. They know who they are and so do we. The problem for Ukraine will more likely be the results of the US elections. "Some are saying" weapons flow should be curtailed. Unlike the last POTUS, this one says nothing about a personal relationship with Putin. I am pretty sure he can't stand Putin. And Putin entirely misread him, NATO, and much of the world.

That said, any chance for a diplomatic solution is always on the table for any major power. Even a few months holdup on supplying weapons, like the one that occurred a few years ago around the time of the perfect phone call, could give the Russians a chance. Any pulling back on military support is very unlikely until the new Congress takes office. But there are ways around even this…

Here's a newer link, sourced from the WSJ. link

And if there were a Republican president, 81% of republicans would probably support aid to Ukraine.

Sigh.

It's the wrong thing to choose political sides over.

Legion the link on the GOP followed my last post.

Thanks ! Got it ! I think no matter what party, etc. thinks stop supporting the Ukraine is a mistake. As I and people much smarter that I have said. We have the chance to really clip Putin & Russia's wings. They are a threat to the West … Not as big as the PRC/CCP but a large threat none-the-less.

And Putin entirely misread him, NATO, and much of the world.

Yes completely and as we see it is costing him and Russia.

Unlike the last POTUS, this one says nothing about a personal relationship with Putin.

Regardless the last POTUS read Putin, saw the KGB in him. Plus many have said, Putin wouldn't have attacked if the last POTUS was still there. For a number of reasons. Mostly the last POTUS is not the weak, confused, feckless, possibly suffering dementia, etc., as the current Top US leader is.

Bottom line, Putin along with Xi & Iran quickly saw the weakness, confusion, out of touch, etc. that the current POTUS demonstrates almost daily. Along with almost daily his admin has to walk back many things he says.

The A'stan debacle clearly showed the weakness, confusion, etc. the current POTUS and his admin demonstrates again almost daily. Many believe that the current crop of this admin's cabinet are the weakest that have been in the WH ever. I agree … As well as the POTUS is too old, confused, etc. to be anywhere near a seat anywhere in DC/WH. All Putin, etc. have to do is watch the daily news feeds. Didn't take them long to see the facts.

The A'stan debacle was the green light for Putin to attack Ukraine. He did and now we see how it backfired on him. Not only because he read the US admin's weaknesses from the top down. But he miss-read his own military as well as the Ukrainian military and their resolve. Along with NATO and many other nations support for the Ukraine.

It's not just that the current US leadership both elected and appointed are weak, etc. But Putin and his cronies, etc. miss-read his side at many levels.

I don't think we know much about the last POTUS and Putin one way or the other. "I ve always felt fine about Putin" is the quote that worried me but who knows what was meant. You may be right but I don't recall much criticism of Putin.

The walk backs of the current POTUS on China and Russia indicate he has no problems taking military action to defend our interests. Not everyone agrees with this and I think it's either a slip and a mistake on his part or a warning to our enemies.

By the way, I am no fan of the current OR the last POTUS in terms of military or other competence. I do not want to be misinterpreted in that way. It is hard for me to see where we have had strong competent leadership from the CinC during this century and I would not cut anyone any slack regardless of politics. My opinion, not looking for a lengthy argument.

IMO, we have had some good generals, some not so good over this time. I know several vets who concur but I am no expert and did not serve in the military. I do understand good and bad leadership in government after serving in a different capacity and dealing with political leaders and extreme self interest on both sides. The disconnect with everyday people may be something many of us can agree on regardless of politics.

Here's a link on concerns about concerns over US support for Ukraine from Fox.
Zelinsky has carefully commented on this as well in recent days.

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I don't think we know much about the last POTUS and Putin one way or the other.

Twice the investigations of "Russian collusion" proved it did not happen. What more do we need to know.

I think it's either a slip and a mistake on his part or a warning to our enemies.

those "slips & mistakes", etc. happens waaaay too often. And those comments have to be walked back and not only by the POTUS. this is not good capable leadership. And our enemies see that on the daily news feeds.

My opinion, not looking for a lengthy argument.

Agree … no harm no foul … We generally know where each other stand.

MO, we have had some good generals, some not so good over this time. I know several vets who concur but I am no expert and did not serve in the military.

Yes, it is like any large group. You have some Top Guns, some just compete, etc. But I think in this case our top elected and appointed leadership don't listen … and do what they want for political reasons … I.e. A'stan, etc.

The disconnect with everyday people may be something many of us can agree on regardless of politics.

Bingo ! E.g. they seem to be blind to what many in the "Heartland", need, want, feel and even who we are, etc. I.e. Many Blue Collar and low wage White Collar workers. And goes many in the media are same. WE have an "Elite" Class in the USA. And it is a small minority of all Americans. They have more power than they should. Those at the very top, the Elite, politicos, etc. forgot about, WE THE PEOPLE" …

Yes on elites. On this we agree 100%. They are on both sides, laughing all the way to the bank.

👍👍

Supporting Ukraine and regaining control of our own borders should be some of our priorities. However, at a Climate Conference in Egypt today. The US Gov't is giving millions if not a billion or so of US tax payer $. USD To poorer nations who can't afford a "Green Agenda" … !?!?!?!?!?
😯
Very poor priorities IMO … again …

Not surprised given how much $$$$ have been spent with little oversight. I only wonder how much of the billions of $$ of US war and relief aid for Ukraine has made its way into the pockets of Establishment politicians and interests in the West – including Democrats and select Republicans, and no doubt to Ukrainian oligarchs and other interests.

BREAKING EXCLUSIVE: Tens of Billions of US Dollars Were Transferred to Ukraine and then Using FTX Crypto Currency the Funds Were Laundered Back to Democrats in US

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WOW !!!!!!

FTX, which until today was listed as a crypto partner by the WEF, with the WEF's support was set up to manage a Ukrainian government aid donation system, "Aid for Ukraine." We're talking billions of $$ in aid and transactions…a lot of it just went POOF! Oh, the Ukrainian government has also taken down that donation site.

"'Aid for Ukraine,' which has the backing of crypto exchange FTX, staking platform Everstake, and Ukraine's Kuna exchange, will route donated crypto to the National Bank of Ukraine, Everstake's Head of Growth Vlad Likhuta told CoinDesk. Ukraine's crypto-savvy Ministry of Digital Transformation is also involved

ttps://www.theblaze.com/news/ftx-sam-bankman-fried-democrats-ukraine

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