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"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic


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Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP24 Mar 2024 9:47 a.m. PST

Seems NATO, etc. supports the war against the Russian aggression of Ukraine.

Interestingly I heard in a report yesterday, that the US has given more $ to Iran than Ukraine ? I hope that is not true ?
However, IMO for a number poorly thought-out reasons, etc., the US still believes they can talk to Iran's leaders. While Iran continues to work on nukes and supplies missiles, etc. to the Houthis, etc. I think they are playing the US as they know the US leadership is risk adverse and fears escalation. IMO the US leadership is wrong …

Tango0125 Mar 2024 11:33 p.m. PST

Russian Missile Passes Over Poland And Into NATO Airspace, Military Reports—For A 2nd Time


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What the US Army should learn from Ukraine's hasty retreat from a Russian assault

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NATO insider issues dire warning on 'extraordinary complacency' over Russian threat

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Armand

Tango0126 Mar 2024 10:35 p.m. PST

The meaning of Sweden's NATO accession


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Putin says soldiers from NATO countries are in Ukraine and full-scale war with NATO is still an option

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Armand

Tango0127 Mar 2024 10:43 p.m. PST

The New American M10 Tank


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K2 Tanks For Everyone

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What Ukraine Needs from NATO

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Armand

Tango0128 Mar 2024 10:47 p.m. PST

US Navy to Test Microwave Anti-Drone Weapon at Sea in 2026

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Army artillery needs more range, mobility and autonomy, study finds

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Armand

Tango0129 Mar 2024 10:53 p.m. PST

The 'we win, they lose' mentality is alive and well in Northern Europe

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Armand

Tango0102 Apr 2024 12:21 p.m. PST

NATO Is Unprepared for Russia's Arctic Threats

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Meet the Infantry Squad Vehicle: the Unholy Union of Pickup Truck and UTV


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link


Armand

Tango0103 Apr 2024 12:44 p.m. PST

French Forces in Romania


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Armand

Tango0104 Apr 2024 11:23 p.m. PST

NATO mulls $100 USD billion allied fund for arming Ukraine, takeover of US-led planning


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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2024 8:34 a.m. PST

IMO that is good news … with the waffling of the current US leadership. The Ukraine's future could be in the hands of the US voters in the next Election.

I don't know how the US military will react to not being in the loop for the planning. I thought this was a combined NATO mission. But who would be in charge of this new command ?

France ?

Hungary ?

Who ?

SBminisguy05 Apr 2024 3:18 p.m. PST

I don't know how the US military will react to not being in the loop for the planning. I thought this was a combined NATO mission. But who would be in charge of this new command ?

Peak madness. The NATO countries aren't paying enough for their own defense, let alone for Ukraine. And yes the US planners are idiots and fools for pushing Ukraine to attack – but if NATO wants to attach and use US assets without US oversight??? See ya, NATO.

And what stupid messaging, "Trump proof aid," that only guarantees that if Trump wins he'll write the whole thing off. How stupid and insulting. Rather than negotiate and convince, they want to flip the game table over rather than risk not getting their way. Pathetic, short sighted and what a losing mentality.

And what's the point anyway? The only way to end the war is with a negotiated peace. Despite Russian losses and predictions of Russian collapse, they keep going -- as they have in the past, yes? And Ukraine doesn't have the resources to militarily win the war and have only been hurt by the arrogance and stupidity of NATO and the Biden Admin's constantly pushing Ukraine to do counter-offenses that had little chance of success. For what, to make nice headlines and make everything look good and positive?

There has never been anything good and positive about this war, the only reasonable thing Ukraine could and should be focused on is making themselves too prickly to swallow -- too painful to keep attacking. Eventually this train will go off the rails -- perhaps Ukrainians get tired of dictator Zelensky (he's suspended elections, what else do you call him?) and what him gone, or more Ukrainians leave, or Russia scores a major military win. So our only choice has always been either actively manage the end of the war through negotiations, or act surprised when Ukraine collapses.

Besides, I'm sure Blackrock, political leaders and others will continue to get massive kick-backs for the billions of reconstruction aid planned for Ukraine, right? So they'll still make bank.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2024 8:48 p.m. PST

SB +1

Lilian06 Apr 2024 4:21 p.m. PST

I call Zelensky a true leader in war facing an invasion and leading an existential resistance for his country and nation
maybe France in totally similar situation facing a foreign invasion on her territory with a democratic Parlement, a presidency of the republic but the elections suspended 4 years until 1918 for obvious reasons with 5 millions of men mobilised in the trenches far from their homes has been converted into a dictatorship after 1914?
and the military didn't have the right to vote until 1945 like the women, not the case of Ukraine

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP06 Apr 2024 8:52 p.m. PST

I believe he is the best war time leader we have seen is some time. Too bad the US dragged its feet and not giving the Ukraine all what was needed as soon as it needed to kick the Russians out of their lands. The A'stan debacle, the invasion of Ukraine and allowing Iran to support Hamas with their war with Israel. Plus the Houthis attacking ships with Iran's missiles.

The blame goes to again, the US leadership. The investigations into the A'stan debacle proves this. The plan was hastily done with no strategic plan, etc. The Military was not in on the planning. But academics with no real military experience. Who thought they were in class playing with toy soldiers.

And no one was held accountable for this mess. Costing the US 13 good service members, much better than those that sent them to their deaths. America should be embarrassed, and someone held accountable. Like the academics who thought they knew more about war than our military leaders. Ending up with a plan that a 2LT would not have come up with.

There was no war time leadership demonstrated as Zelinksy is …

Tango0106 Apr 2024 10:35 p.m. PST

Norway to double military spending under ‘historic' long-term defense plan

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NATO's Future is Churchillian, Not Wilsonian

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Geopolitics and the Moon

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Armand

SBminisguy07 Apr 2024 9:50 a.m. PST

There was no war time leadership demonstrated as Zelinksy is …

Did Lincoln suspend elections during a bloody Civil War? Did FDR suspend elections during WW2? Did the British suspend elections during Ww2? Maybe I have high standards of what I want in my leaders…

wardog07 Apr 2024 11:55 a.m. PST

heard there was a clause in ukraines constitution which prevented elections in wartime .maybe i just heard wrong

Lilian07 Apr 2024 12:41 p.m. PST

because FDR and Churchill suffered and faced a similar invasion and occupation on their own soil like him?

oh yes indeed : Aleutian and Channel Islands

glad to learn that the Confederacy, 9 millions of inhabitants including ~40% of slaves, can participate and vote to US elections between 1861 and 1865 as if nothing had happened, something new for me but it is true that Chouannerie and Vendée can vote during a bloody civil war occured before Napoléon

not really good examples and comparisons

Ukraine has ~20% (17,52) of the territory directly invaded and occupied, 10 millions of citizens left their home, a true Exodus, 4 millions of refugees outside Ukraine for a country of 44 millions of inhabitants

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP07 Apr 2024 7:24 p.m. PST

Maybe I have high standards of what I want in my leaders…
I should have said more recent or current leaders. Say few and far between since Vietnam.

High standards for leaders … I have a tendency to be a bit more realistic, after the many leaders the USA has had during Vietnam and afterwards.

Dagwood08 Apr 2024 1:13 a.m. PST

During WW2 the UK was run by a coalition government. No-one voted for Churchill. Afaik there were no elections ?

SBminisguy08 Apr 2024 9:19 a.m. PST

@Lilian

glad to learn that the Confederacy, 9 millions of inhabitants including ~40% of slaves, can participate and vote to US elections between 1861 and 1865 as if nothing had happened,

I'm sorry Sarc Much, the United States was in mortal peril, the Capitol itself under siege and yet still Lincoln did not suspend elections.

SBminisguy08 Apr 2024 12:50 p.m. PST

Ukraine has ~20% (17,52) of the territory directly invaded and occupied, 10 millions of citizens left their home, a true Exodus, 4 millions of refugees outside Ukraine for a country of 44 millions of inhabitants

Yep, it's damn horrible. But Ukraine cannot militarily defeat Russia. The Ukrainians can with great effort and proper support prevent Russia from conquering them, and make it too difficult and painful for Russia to continue, leading to a peace deal. That's it. The US took its best shot at toppling Putin with the Wagner Group Coup attempt and failed, and Putin has since consolidated power even further. Short of choking on a cherry pit, Zorg style, he's not going away.

The US and NATO also took their best shot at crippling the Russian economy by blowing up the Nordstream pipeline, seizing assets and putting sanctions in place. Russia worked around those and formed even closer ties to China, which is where much of Russia's consumer good come from now. They sell oil to China and get back blue jeans and cell phones. So that didn't work, all it did was create a dangerously close Russian-China axis.

So -- what next???

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP08 Apr 2024 3:20 p.m. PST

"So — What next???"

Well let's hope it's not leading to this. Just in case anyone had allusions as to what it would be like.

Subject: The day of nuclear Armageddon: Newly declassified documents reveal in macabre minute-by-minute detail what the end of the world would like. And why those vaporised instantly by an atomic bomb will be the lucky ones…


link

SBminisguy08 Apr 2024 4:09 p.m. PST

Just watch the movie "Threads" from the 1980s -- it'll scare the hell out of you.

YouTube link

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP08 Apr 2024 4:32 p.m. PST

I have no doubts. Even if one somehow survives, life would be nothing but misery and constant fear, especially from other survivors.

One must ask: What is worth the sacrifice of tempting this? At what point will one persons stupid mistake, one megalomaniac, one incompetent leader, one accident or some series of unforeseeable events, bring this on.

When nuclear powers are involved, it is always a possibility.

How many at the time, thought the shooting of an Archduke in a tiny Central European country could've brought on a world war?

How many at the time thought that the megalomaniac leaders of two countries invading the country of Poland would've brought on World War II?

SBminisguy09 Apr 2024 1:56 p.m. PST

Yep. And the same people in the Biden Admin in charge of US policy are the same ones who caused the Libyan Civil War, collapsed parts of Iraq leading to the rise of ISIS and prolonging the Syrian Civil War, also enabled Iran to take over Yemen, and the fiasco failure in Afghanistan.

Tango0109 Apr 2024 11:06 p.m. PST

US F-35s to Poland: NATO Has 5-Times More 5th-Gen Jets Than Russia

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Armand

Tango0110 Apr 2024 10:53 p.m. PST

PEAK STUBBORNNESS: WHEN NAVY SEALS TRAINED WITH SLOVENIAN MOUNTAIN WARFARE TROOPS

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The Missing Link in Alexander Gabuev's Sino-Russian ‘Unholy Alliance'


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Ukrainian Army Receives US HEMTT M978 Truck Tankers for Battlefield Logistics

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Germany Establishes Permanent Military Forces abroad for First Time Since WWII


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Germany Strengthens Support for Ukraine with New Batch of Military Equipment


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US Approves Sale of HAWK Phase III Air Defense System to Ukraine

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Germany Buys Marder 1A3 Infantry Vehicles from Rheinmetall for Ukraine


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Polaris MRZR 4 all-terrain vehicles deployed with Ukrainian Special Forces


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Lithuania delivers to Ukraine additional M577 command post armored tracked vehicles

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Lithuania buys 3 000 drones to support Ukraine against Russian offensive


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Netherlands Plans to Provide 24 F-16 Fighters to Ukraine

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Finland announces new military aid package to Ukraine


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Armand

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP12 Apr 2024 3:00 p.m. PST

Subject: Top U.S. General In Europe Issues Stark Warning About Russian Military


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Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP12 Apr 2024 7:13 p.m. PST

Well it certainly sounds like some in NATO are pulling their weight … The US and NATO must continue all the support they can send. If nothing else Putin's Forces must continue to be attrited. Making them weaker and weaker to become less of a threat to the West.

Tango0115 Apr 2024 10:48 p.m. PST

The US Army's ability to maneuver rapidly on the battlefield may be over

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What we learn from Serbia's intriguing fighter-jet choice

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Armand

Dagwood16 Apr 2024 6:50 a.m. PST

To answer the original question, it took less than nine months before the Western consensus fell apart, mainly due to a small number of US politicians …

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP17 Apr 2024 11:34 a.m. PST

Dagwood +1

A very small vocal well-paid Kabal of our elected and appointed leaders are really to blame. Starting at the very top all the way on down.

It appears because of this "Kabal", the end of the Ukraine-Russo War will most likely not end well for the Ukraine.

Tango0117 Apr 2024 11:25 p.m. PST

US Navy May Add Armed, Robotic "Mobile Fire Base" Floating Attack Drone

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The Pentagon Created a New Kind of Underwater Predator: The Mysterious Manta Ray

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP18 Apr 2024 1:39 p.m. PST

Once again, Sci-fi becomes Sci-fact …

Tango0118 Apr 2024 11:06 p.m. PST

New Submarines for Norway


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NATO Suspects a Threat

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Armand

Tango0119 Apr 2024 10:47 p.m. PST

NATO's Year of Deterrence


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Armand

Tango0122 Apr 2024 10:30 p.m. PST

SWEDEN, FINLAND, AND NATO'S FIRST-CLASS AIRPOWER UPGRADE

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Armand

Tango0123 Apr 2024 11:23 p.m. PST

Current Conflicts Demonstrate Need for More and Better Tanks In Eastern Europe


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Poland "Ready" To Host Nuclear Weapons

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Armand

Tango0124 Apr 2024 11:30 p.m. PST

Minigun-Armed Mojave Drone Now Blasting Targets At 6,000 Rounds Per Minute

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Armand

Tango0125 Apr 2024 10:40 p.m. PST

THE ILLUSION OF CONVENTIONAL WAR: EUROPE IS LEARNING THE WRONG LESSONS FROM THE CONFLICT IN UKRAINE

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Armand

Tango0126 Apr 2024 11:08 p.m. PST

Can the US Solve Its Recruitment Crisis With a Foreign Legion?

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Armand

Nine pound round27 Apr 2024 5:41 a.m. PST

There are other good reasons not to have a foreign legion, but the simplest of all would be just to not demonize the half the country that traditionally furnishes the recruit pool.

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP27 Apr 2024 5:52 a.m. PST

Please keep in mind with all the spending:

"In 2023, the federal government spent $658 USD billion on net interest costs on the national debt. That total, which grew by 38 percent from $476 USD billion in 2022, was the largest amount ever spent on interest in the budget and totaled 2.4 percent of gross domestic product (GDP). Interest costs are on track to become the largest category of spending in the federal budget — but what comprises the government's net outlays on interest, and what affects the size of such costs?"

"Rising interest rates and growing national debt cause federal interest costs to rise. And interest costs, in turn, contribute to the growth of federal spending — continuing a vicious cycle of borrowing, interest, and higher debt. Interest costs also crowd out opportunities for investment in other important priorities. In fact, the government is already on a path to spending more on interest costs than its spending on education, research and development, and infrastructure combined. If unaddressed, the growing borrowing costs will pose significant challenges for our nation's fiscal future."

….

"The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects that interest payments will total $870 USD billion in fiscal year 2024 and rise rapidly throughout the next decade — climbing from $951 USD billion in 2025 to $1.6 USD trillion in 2034. In total, net interest payments will total $12.4 USD trillion over the next decade. Relative to the size of the economy, interest will rise from 3.2 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in fiscal year 2025 to 3.9 percent in 2034. The previous high for interest relative to GDP in the post-World War II era was 3.2 percent in 1991 — that ratio would now be exceeded in 2025.

The federal government already spends more on interest than on budget areas such as:

Medicaid
Federal spending on children
Income security programs, which include programs targeted to lower-income Americans such as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program; earned income, child, and other tax credits
Veterans' benefits
What is more, spending on interest will surpass federal outlays on major budget categories over the next few years:

In fiscal year 2024, the federal government will spend more on interest than on defense.
In fiscal years 2024 through 2026, interest payments will exceed the amount that the federal government spends on Medicare (net of offsetting receipts). Net Medicare spending will overtake interest payments in the following years, except for 2029.
In fiscal year 2025, the federal government will spend more on interest than on non-defense discretionary, which includes funding for transportation, veterans, education, health, international affairs, natural resources and environment, general science and technology, general government, and more.

What is more, interest will continue to outstrip other budget categories in the long term. CBO projects that interest will once again exceed the amount spent on Medicare (net of offsetting receipts) in 2046 and Social Security in 2051, at which point interest will be the largest category in the federal budget."

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP27 Apr 2024 11:35 a.m. PST

There are other good reasons not to have a foreign legion, but the simplest of all would be just to not demonize the half the country that traditionally furnishes the recruit pool.
Agreed, as "cool" as the FFL is, the USA should be able fill all the slots in the Military.

But as pointed out, the progressives, etc., has turned the US into the home base for White Oppressor vs. Everyone is oppressed paradigm. CRT, DEI, etc. really only divides us … But I guess that is all part of the woke, etc. element of US society agenda, narrative, etc. On the way to making the USA into the USSA …

Tango0127 Apr 2024 10:48 p.m. PST

Why the West will refuse to fight Citizens won't sacrifice themselves

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NATO's Real Problem is Europe, Not The U.S.

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What $61 USD Billion for Ukraine Won't Do


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Armand

SBminisguy28 Apr 2024 7:46 a.m. PST

Why the West will refuse to fight Citizens won't sacrifice themselves

Missing from this is not just that elites/grifters are obviously controlling and manipulating the system for their own benefit at the expense of the rest of us, but the elite-controlled institutions of education and media constantly pump out a message that our civilization is evil and racist. So then why would anyone want to defend it?

I recall an interview with a young man in a Banlieue during the first Summer of Burning Tires in France. His parents were from Algeria, but he'd been born and raised in France. He was asked why he's attacking his own country, and he said it's not his own country -- he's not "Gallois." The schools taught him that France is evil, racist, colonialist, an oppressor – why would he want to be part of that? So his identity was Muslim, and the Gallois will fall and be replaced by Islam. Why? Because he found meaning outside of being French, which government schools taught him was a horrible, weak, selfish, oppressive country -- he found meaning in being Muslim, which according to his Imam and older boys was glorious, strong, just, etc etc.

Tango0128 Apr 2024 9:17 p.m. PST

A very sad truth…


Armand

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP29 Apr 2024 5:36 a.m. PST

Well, maybe we could kill 2 birds with one stone. 🤔

The Ukraine needs troops. We have an over abundance of protesters looking for real meaning and purpose in their lives, as well as needing a real dose of reality and discipline. Let's hand them draft notices to the Ukrainian army and on to a plane the same day. We get rid of a bunch of taxpayer funded scholarships and loans and the costs of all these protests, the Ukraine gets front line troops. Win Win! 😉

They are already prepping them in California.

Subject: Citizen Free Press on X: "This is how you wake up sleeping terrorists at UCLA. Robin Williams would be proud. 4:30 am in Los Angeles. t.co/ie0w8j3akx / X


link

SBminisguy29 Apr 2024 7:41 a.m. PST

LOL! Sounds good to me!

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