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"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic


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Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP13 Feb 2024 9:38 a.m. PST

Good ! NATO has to get its head out of it's Bleeped text and realize they need to rebuild their militaries. A report I heard in the media, IIRC … 14 of the 31 NATO members are actually using their 2% GDP for their Militaries as the NATO charter says. My numbers may be a bit off, but the point is clear. old fart

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP13 Feb 2024 1:49 p.m. PST

Legion, I think I have read somewhere there is a role for lighter tanks in the Pacific. But that may be a more specialized weapon, terrain adapted and light enough for rapid deployments across those distances.

The NATO numbers have been better recently, but how much do they matter in relative terms? Belgium has a high quality Air Force but it is not very large. They started buying F35s a couple of years ago and sent some F16s to Ukraine. A small contribution in real numbers but more than their share, I think.

Tango0113 Feb 2024 4:32 p.m. PST

How incomprehensible to understand those who maintain that NATO always had the primary objective of invading Russia… when simply with an easy reading you can know that for decades Western European countries never prioritized their military spending…

On the other hand… I would very much like to know what they say to the Russians about the shameful withdrawal they had to make from those European countries occupied since WW2… and why none of them embraced their political ideas and way of life… .why did they all choose to belong to NATO…

Why countries like Sweden or Finland also joined after decades of active neutrality…


Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP13 Feb 2024 8:36 p.m. PST

I think I have read somewhere there is a role for lighter tanks in the Pacific.
The Army's new Booker "Light Tank" will actually replace the old M551 Sheridan that the 82d ABN Div has used for a long time. The 82d has had a "Light" Tank Bn since after Vietnam, IIRC. The Booker may also be used by e.g. Light inf Div i.e. 10TH MTN. The Booker will provide direct fire for the Infantry. Which was the Tank's original mission. If need be it can go in a tank vs. tank battle.

Also, its smaller size and weight will make it much more deployable. Like all the Light Divs are …

But again it is for Infantry support. And Light units like the 82d, 101, 10TH MTN, etc. does have organic TOW Heavy AT missiles in their TO&Es. Mounted on various vehicles e.g. HMMMWV. A very good tank killer, the TOW is wire-guided and is going to be replaced by an AT missile that does not rely on wire guidance. Old Tech going back to Vietnam.

Regardless the Light units with Bookers and the replacement for the TOW will be a more powerful force. And it really is not designed to be use only in a Jungle environment. But to any environment where those Light units deploy. Plus as always we fight combined arms.

The NATO numbers have been better recently, but how much do they matter in relative terms?
Well it matters where and what their mission is.

Belgium has a high quality Air Force but it is not very large. They started buying F35s a couple of years ago and sent some F16s to Ukraine. A small contribution in real numbers but more than their share, I think.
Yes higher quality well trained and well lead troops with proper Log support. Many times makes smaller number superior to larger low quality, poorly trained, lead and supported forces. As we see in the Ukraine …

UshCha13 Feb 2024 10:28 p.m. PST

I think we in Europe are realising that the US may no longer be an ally of the western world.

With Trump in charge they will become a parias state, an ally of Russia and China. We, Europe will need to be self sufficient and be prepared for war from both the East and West.

While Biden remains nominally in charge the US looks foolish but with some merit. Trump will side with Russia and a new world order against democracy will attempt to rise.

I feel sorry for free Americans, perhaps a new civil war will erupt in the US, that would be a real tradegy for all concerned and perhaps one Europe will be unable to prevent.

Tango0113 Feb 2024 11:02 p.m. PST

Why This New Armored Vehicle Is the U.S. Army's Unsung Hero

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP14 Feb 2024 9:44 a.m. PST

I think we in Europe are realising that the US may no longer be an ally of the western world.
Right now there is a real leadership deficit in the USA. And US leadership is risk adverse and fears escalation. And our enemies know it and are taking advantage of it.

With Trump in charge they will become a parias state, an ally of Russia and China. We, Europe will need to be self sufficient and be prepared for war from both the East and West.
No … none of that is correct IMO and many others. But I don't want to get too political. But that won't happen. FWIW – The POTUS is not a King. Much has to go thru Congress, etc. …

While Biden remains nominally in charge the US looks foolish but with some merit.
Foolish … IMO very much so, however with little to no merit.

Trump will side with Russia and a new world order against democracy will attempt to rise.
No that is inaccurate. That is not how it would go. Many in DC and in the Heartland, don't want to see a new world order. Ani't gonna' happen …

I feel sorry for free Americans, perhaps a new civil war will erupt in the US, that would be a real tradegy for all concerned and perhaps one Europe will be unable to prevent.
No the only way ACW 2.0 will happen is among the factions in the media. Or in Congress. No shooting just a lot of rhetoric …

It is interesting to me to see how some Euros feel about all these topics. Much of it is more media opinion than reality. But we will have to see in 2025.

Admittedly I could be wrong … as I am no Nostradamus … 🧙‍♂️ … But then who is ? old fart

Tango0116 Feb 2024 11:11 p.m. PST

Rearming Europe To Win Ukraine's Long War

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Armand

Tango0117 Feb 2024 9:59 p.m. PST

A World Without NATO

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Armand

Tango0119 Feb 2024 10:58 p.m. PST

NATO's Warplan Against Russia: Go Crazy with Tactical Nuclear Weapons

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Russia Would Have Tried to Nuke Its Way to Victory over NATO in a War

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A Frozen War in Ukraine Would Be a Victory for Russia


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Armand

Tango0120 Feb 2024 11:15 p.m. PST

British Army Tests New Ajax Armored Reconnaissance Vehicles in Sweden's Extreme Cold Weather


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Sweden to send ten CB90-class fast assault craft to Ukraine


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Dynamit Nobel Defense from Germany Explores Co-Production of Panzerfaust-3 anti-tank weapon in Ukraine


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France Increase Ukrainian Artillery Capabilities with 78 CAESAR Howitzers in 2024

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Swedish government announces largest military aid package to Ukraine


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Denmark commits to supporting Ukraine with delivery of all its artillery systems


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Japan pledges long-term support for Ukraine in conflict with Russia

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United States donates mine clearance equipment to Ukrainian armed forces

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Germany Confirms Future Supply of 18 Additional PzH 2000 155mm Self-Propelled Howitzers to Ukraine


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In Detail: Official List Weapons & Military Vehicles Delivered by France to Ukraine


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Netherlands Joins Coalition to Provide Drones for Ukraine

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Borsuk IFV overcomes technical challenges and nears test completion

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP21 Feb 2024 5:04 p.m. PST

So, it appears the US/NATO and some other nations are still supporting the Ukraine's war effort vs. the Russians. If the US/NATO allows Putin to "win" it will not bode well for the region.

Tango0121 Feb 2024 10:36 p.m. PST

THE USA ARMY IS STEPPING INTO THE FUTURE WITH THESE THREE VEHICLES

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2024 6:29 p.m. PST

Yes, I have read about the new vehicles. But I thought the M10 Booker was to replace the 82d's M551 Sheridan. And be assigned to Light Infantry units e.g. 82d, 10MTN, etc. The article says the M10 is supposed to support Mech Infantry. So, with its light weight it may get on the ground sooner than the 72 ton M1A2 MBTs. To support Mech and Lgt.

The XM30 will replace the M2 Bradley. It should be even more lethal.

And yes, robotic vehicles are on the Army's and pretty much everyone's list. More and more robotic equipment will be seen on the battlefield. And influence warfare as the drone did on a tactical and operational level.

Tango0122 Feb 2024 11:51 p.m. PST

For NATO Countries Bordering Russia, ‘Real War is Possible

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Armand

SBminisguy23 Feb 2024 8:48 a.m. PST

Russia Would Have Tried to Nuke Its Way to Victory over NATO in a War

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Great reminder that our best and brightest planners can be 100% wrong. ALL of NATO's defense plans called for conventional defense to combat Soviet advances and prevent a "threshold" for WMD use, which they felt would be a last resort by desperate Soviets once their conventional attacks stalled and failed – and a possible slow escalation towards limited WMD use, followed by a cease fire and peace.

Nope. The Soviets had no game plan for "escalation path" warfare -- in it to win it on day one with the broad use of chemical weapons and tactical nukes to wipe out NATO air fields, barracks, logistics hub, US prepositioned supply depots and key ports.

Oh -- and France expected its nuclear arsenal to exempt it from invasion. Nope! A Soviet decapitation strike was planned to wipe out Frances Force du Frappe, and the follow-on to "Seven Days to the Rhine" was "30 Days to Biscay." For reals. The Soviets planned to take it all.

And the US and NATO think they are inside Putin's head? Inside the heads of Russian Generals and know how the Ukraine War is going to go? ROFLMAO!

Steve Wilcox23 Feb 2024 10:48 a.m. PST

Fixed the link:

link

:)

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP23 Feb 2024 10:55 a.m. PST

So far, no one really takes Putin's nuke threats seriously. But the US Gov't has to be very aware of it. Again our leaders are risk adverse, and fear escalation. And Putin knows that … However, all know using nukes is a 0-Sum game. Nothing good will really come of it.

Lilian23 Feb 2024 11:05 a.m. PST

Oh and the Russians hoped to go until Portugal like today passing by France without any French nuclear reaction, seriously, they were very very very sure to destroy all the French 500 nuclear weapons of that time, Air Ground Sea and Submarine, great I am very impressed but that is not exactly what I read…

« French deterrence changed Soviet nuclear strategy »
Not only the Soviets took the tricolor strike force very seriously, but it led them to completely review their conception of war in Central Europe, explains Sovietologist Jacques Sapir.

However, upon reading these documents, we see that French nuclear dissuasion is not only taken seriously, but also that it is mainly its implementation which leads to the shift in Soviet doctrine believing that war could, under certain conditions, be kept below the nuclear threshold
(…)
French deterrence appears at that time sufficiently serious, but also sufficiently independent, particularly vis-à-vis of the United States — unlike the British nuclear deterrent. Soviet military planners said to themselves: "Well, if we enter French territory, the risk of a nuclear slippage becomes far too great and, even if this nuclear commitment is initially limited, we have no idea to what extent he could go. » In other words, the French strike force represents an element of uncertainty which puts to rest the idea that the war could remain conventional.
(…)
the territory of France was considered under protection, it was in fact sanctuarized.
The principle of deterrence thought and designed by the French has indeed worked.

Tango0123 Feb 2024 11:02 p.m. PST

"Hungary has one of the most experienced air forces": Budapest has increased its fleet of Gripen fighters

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP24 Feb 2024 10:33 a.m. PST

today passing by France without any French nuclear reaction, seriously,
Well the NATO plan was to stop the USSR/WP flood across the IGB. With most of the fighting being in West Germany. As NATO's final mission was to reestablish the IGB. No drive on Moscow, etc.

Today the NATO border has expanded greatly. With the front lines being in many former WP nations. Who joined NATO as soon as they could. For obvious reasons, e.g. the Russians are bad landlords and neighbors …

Tango0127 Feb 2024 11:02 p.m. PST

In NATO's Newest Member, ‘Total Defense' Includes Teens and Retirees

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Armand

Tango0128 Feb 2024 11:01 p.m. PST

Estonia Builds a Fence on its Russian Border

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Armand

Tango0129 Feb 2024 11:11 p.m. PST

Defeating Putin in Ukraine should be goal of liberals and conservatives alike


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Is Poland ready to defend itself against a Russian armed attack?

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As Sweden Enters NATO, Its Gripens Link Up with B-1Bs

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The Implication of Russian Orbital Nuclear Weapons


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Armand

Tango0104 Mar 2024 10:31 p.m. PST

Air defenders deployment extended as service grows the job field


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Armand

Tango0105 Mar 2024 10:42 p.m. PST

NATO Should Select the Next Secretary General From Its Eastern Flank

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Armand

Tango0106 Mar 2024 10:56 p.m. PST

4 ways the US should help Ukraine right now


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Armand

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP07 Mar 2024 5:02 a.m. PST

Armand, a great find. Rubin actually writes for the Philadelphia Inquirer, not the Korea Times.

Direct, to the point, short and sweet.

This is exactly what's happening politically in the US. I respect the views of many here, but it's also time to call out the other side. Appeasement is appeasement. Putin is not our pal, stop helping him. It may be too late already for Ukraine.

Tango0107 Mar 2024 4:30 p.m. PST

Happy you enjoyed it my good friend…


Armand

Tango0107 Mar 2024 10:42 p.m. PST

First Block 70 F-16s Are Out For Delivery


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Nine Things Western Analysts Got Wrong About Russia's Invasion of Ukraine

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Armand

Tango0108 Mar 2024 11:05 p.m. PST

AMERICA'S SECRET STEALTH AIRCRAFT YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF


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Armand

Tango0111 Mar 2024 11:23 p.m. PST

NATO and Ukraine Launch Joint Training Centre to Strengthen Defense Cooperation

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Germany steps up to support Czech initiative for Ukraine munitions supply

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Norway joins Czech initiative to support Ukraine with artillery shells

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UK-Donated AS90 Howitzers Outperform Old Soviet-Made Artillery in Accuracy and Range in Ukraine

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UK Bovington Tank Museum mobilizes its Historic Arsenal to Produce Tank Tracks for Ukraine

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Mista Polish company continues to deliver Oncilla armored vehicles on Ukrainian front

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Bulgaria to deliver first BTR-60PB Armored Personnel Carriers to Ukraine

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Ukraine Receives 14 HMT Extenda Mk 2 Special Forces Vehicles from Australia


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How Czech DITA 155mm Howitzer To Offer Ukrainian Army New Artillery Technology


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France plans to launch arms production on Ukrainian territory


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Slovenian M-55S tank outperforms old Soviet-made Russian tanks in Ukraine

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Bulgaria secretly delivers BRDM-2 armored vehicles and 2S1 self-propelled howitzers to Ukraine

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Armand

Tango0113 Mar 2024 11:13 p.m. PST

What NATO Country Doesn't Have Troops in Ukraine?

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Armand

Tango0114 Mar 2024 10:43 p.m. PST

Arming Poland Faster is Critical to U.S. Interests, NATO's Security

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP15 Mar 2024 6:57 p.m. PST

That is an interesting list of the support many nations are sending to the Ukraine. In their quest to rid their lands of the Russian invaders.

But I also see the US is having some problems supplying the Ukraine. With all the assets they need. Plus, the war in Gaza. And supplying Taiwan. I have already said why I think this is happening … And more will continue to die regardless.

Tango0115 Mar 2024 10:35 p.m. PST

Dear Legion… they only problem to supply Ukraine is politic…


Seems they are solving the problem with the southern border…

Pentagon lists priorities to arm Ukraine, replenish stockpile

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And since we are talking about this thread …

Azerbaijan, the Quiet Partner

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Official report warns Germany's military is aging and shrinking


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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP16 Mar 2024 10:08 a.m. PST

Dear Legion… they only problem to supply Ukraine is politic…


Seems they are solving the problem with the southern border…

Yes politics is getting in the way of sound military support. That is a standard for the past couple of years.

But no, the US Southern border is just a big a clusterBleeped text as it has been for the last 3 years.

As I have said, the US Gov't has decided on some very poor priorities. That were not good for Ukraine nor closing the US open South border.

Tango0116 Mar 2024 10:55 p.m. PST

US Army successfully test new ALTIUS-700M suicide drone

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Poland: NATO's Strategic Partner or Pawn?

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Armand

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP20 Mar 2024 7:13 a.m. PST

To all the US politicians of both parties that demand more money for the Ukrainians and then complain about congress not allocating more taxpayers money to support them. Which also increases our already over 34 trillion dollar debt.

If you truly care so much, let me make two suggestions.
1) offer to take a pay cut and benefits cut and have that money allocated instead to the Ukraine.
2) and much more substantial. Both parties give up the billions they waste on getting elected and re-elected each year and allocate that money to the Ukrainians. That money would not increase the debt either.

I mean….. if they truly care. Put YOUR money where your mouths are.

Subject: Statistical Summary of Six-Month Campaign Activity of the 2023-2024 Election Cycle | FEC


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Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP20 Mar 2024 7:38 a.m. PST

I saw an article on Military.com. The US Sec Def is going to find a way to get more aid to Ukraine. I laud this as we can't let Ukraine succumb to Russian aggression and imperialism.

UshCha20 Mar 2024 8:22 a.m. PST

I thought NATO in its existing form was dead, it's a liability of the first order to have a country committed to helping Europe's enemies.

The US may become a nuclear threat to Europe acting in concert with Russia. While the US may remain an ally, it is by no means a long term prospect, there is clearly a massive anti Europe vote in the US.

Europe needs to be come a single independent military entity capable of defending against any threat east or west.

It may be worth considering no adopting the New US rifle round but going our own way especially when Ukraine Joins Europe.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP20 Mar 2024 6:32 p.m. PST

Disagree … NATO is an existing military organization; it takes time to make such a force.

Western Europe should have no fear of US WMDs. And the US would never work with Russia to attack Europe. That is one of the most off the wall comments I think I have ever heard on this topic.

Most Americans don't even consider being Anti-Europe …

So, if Western Europe wants to end NATO and become an independent force. Why does that not happen ? I think the European nations in both the West and East[former WP], know they are better off with the US being involved with the defense of Europe, etc. Then not …

What would this independent European Forces do ? Who would they attack or defend from ? Go retro with the UK and Germany attacking France ?

Also note many NATO members militaries have downsized considerably with the end of the Cold War and even after the wars in Iraq and A'stan.

but going our own way especially when Ukraine Joins Europe.
Will the Ukraine be Russian occupied entity when that occurs ?

Could Europe support Ukraine in its war with Russia, without the USA ?

Tango0121 Mar 2024 11:10 p.m. PST

Can NATO Survive A Loss In Ukraine?

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Armand

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP22 Mar 2024 8:06 a.m. PST

As I said on the 20th, if the US government really wanted to find the money for the Ukraine, they could, but their pork barrel projects to buy votes are always more important to them.

Don't believe the crap they feed you in the media, the money is there. But their being on the public teat till death, is always their top priority.


Subject: Jesse Watters on X: "What's in the new monster bill Congress is rushing to pass? – $850 USDk for a gay senior home – $15 USD million to pay for Egyptian's college tuitions – $400 USDk for a gay activist group to teach elementary kids about being trans – $500 USDk for a DEI zoo – $400 USDk for a group to gives clothes… t.co/sDcz8bgvMX / X


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35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP22 Mar 2024 9:38 a.m. PST

Passed 😔

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP22 Mar 2024 6:39 p.m. PST

Yes the US Gov't has the cash. They just have to take it away from "Pet Projects" and Pork barrels. The US leadership does not know how to prioritize. But I've said that many times before. The list that 35th OVI posted from FOX is a good example …

And what the Hell is a DEI zoo ?

And yes, it is an election year …

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP22 Mar 2024 7:15 p.m. PST

"And what the Hell is a DEI zoo ?"

🤔 A zoo where zebras 🦓 can claim they are really giraffes and be accepted?🦒 Where one can observe Cross furring Pandas? 🐼

Tango0122 Mar 2024 10:44 p.m. PST

Battleship New Jersey Leaves Pier for First Time in More than 20 Years

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP23 Mar 2024 9:02 a.m. PST

A zoo where zebras 🦓 can claim they are really giraffes and be accepted?🦒 Where one can observe Cross furring Pandas? 🐼
That almost makes sense with the DEI supporters … 🙄


Battleship New Jersey Leaves Pier

Is it going to the Red Sea ? The Med ? The Black Sea ? Off the Coast of Taiwan ?

Nah she is going into dry dock … Damn !!!!!!

Tango0123 Mar 2024 11:17 p.m. PST

Kosovo announces first delivery of military aid package to Ukraine


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Spain to compensate Ukraine's entire loss of Leopard 2A4 tanks with new delivery

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Netherlands Buys Ammunition for F-16s Multirole Fighter Sent to Ukraine

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Luxembourg Army joins artillery coalition for Ukraine

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Canada Announces Additional Military Aid for Ukraine Including Artillery Ammunition

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Nexter Nammo and VAK receive EUR 41Mn from EU to increase artillery ammunition for Ukraine


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Europe allocates more resources to artillery production in support of Ukraine


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Greece Ramps Up Military Support for Ukraine with Czech Partnership Including Rockets and Howitzers

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Armand

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