"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic

Ned….This is not a game of what about this other country or that.

It's about Putin and his army and specific acts committed. If we were in court nothing about Israel would be relevant. If you want charges brought for a financial crime committed by the US against Russia, you better be ready to answer allegations about the killing of non combatants in Ukraine and the suffering there that has resulted.

This is not the same as collateral damage. There are highly skilled pros who investigate these particular matters. They will be busy for decades.

NATO To Hold Its Largest Exercise Next Week Since The Cold War

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Tribunal for Russia: Over 40 countries joined special group

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Armand

" Just like in any court of law proof is the bottom line. And that "proof" may not always be black & white".

"It's about Putin and his army and specific acts committed"

Your responses are so predictable. According to you, Putin and the Russians, defiantly guilty of war crimes because the west says so.

Machine gunning civilians caught on gun camera is not a crime but reporting it is a crime and will get you put in jail. All the other points I raised you have excuses for or they need further investigation. So the rule of international law only applies to other places. People could be forgiven for thinking that amoral behaviour has filtered down through your governments and organisations into society itself. What you are claiming, not just about the war crimes you brought up but also the stealing assets issue, making treaties in bad faith and illegal invasions generally, all these issues. You basically are claiming that the rule of international law doesn't apply to you or your nation its for every one else.

Well your reply is very predictable … And I did not say international law does not apply. But you have drunk the Kool-Aid. Based on your posts you have already decided that the USA is full of war criminals, etc. so why do you want to waste time taking to a former US Army war criminal who trained and lead units full of war criminals ?

Again, don't waste my time … you can waste yours, but you are clearly anti-US, anti-Military, and everything else American.

Again, we are only talking about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Other crimes may be alleged or committed elsewhere by others but they cannot change what has happened in Ukraine. History is full of such crimes and atrocities committed by many nations. None of it changes what Putin and his army have done to Ukraine and its people. You cannot answer for Ukraine by telling me about a different place. It is not going to go away like that.

" You cannot answer for Ukraine by telling me about a different place. It is not going to go away like that".

I wouldn't attempt to answer for ukrane how could I? More to the point why should I? Its non of my business. My point is, the west doesn't abide by its own rules. That's it.

Ned… mention one country in history that abide their own rules at war…

We are talking here about Russian invation of Ukraine… comparartions with other belic situations adds nothing relevant to this conversation….

Armand

Tango +1

Baltic states to bolster border security with Russia, Belarus

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Armand

Could Russia go to war with Sweden?

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Putin Might Decide to Attack NATO and Invade the Baltics

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Armand

Again, Russia does not have the assets or capabilities to invade or attack anyone. Attack any NATO nation would mean massive losses to the Russian forces. NATO can out fight and out gun Russia. Many, many more Russians would die adding to all they loss in the Ukraine. If they use nukes … it would be an even a bigger mistake … Putin et al. knows that …

Astonishing considering NATO believes Russia to be it's biggest threat and also a very serious one.

"Astonishing considering NATO believes Russia to be it's biggest threat and also a very serious one"

I wouldnt get into that if i were you Au pas de Charge, because according to the experts and enthusiasts on here. Russia is about to invade western Europe but they are so poor they couldn't do it….. but they will do it anyway because they they plan too do it….. Putin is mad and knows they are too poor to do it….. but will do it. So get ready.

That's as much sense as you will get from the posts on here. Just to save you some time.

Russia is getting a big break right now, IMO. Even if US aid resumes there will be a gap that will show up on the battlefield. Also there is a possibility next year of a US political administration that holds NATO and Ukraine in less regard than the current one, which is well regarded by most of NATO.

If we continue to let Putin off the hook, the danger to Eastern Europe may return to pre-war levels. And there is no telling how US leadership will relate to Putin in the future.

Who is the biggest threat of NATO…? Iran with no borders in Europe?… North Korea idem?… China far far away from there?… of course it's Russia …

The border country with NATO who shows again and again its prospect of expansion and invasion (or recovering the lands that were occupied and lost) by any means… specially military invation.

Which are the countries/zones from Russia that NATO had invaded from WW2?

Russia did invade Ukraine in 2014 (Sebastopol) and then they tried to do with the whole country that up today they failed…

Do you forget the European uprisings like Hungary that were reprimanded bloodily by the Russians?…

Have you read anything about what it was like to live under Soviet rule?… what was the economy and freedom of those countries occupied by Russia like and what are they like now?…

Why all European countries to be under Russian occupation decided to expel them and accept the Western Democracy system?…

Why countries with a large history of neutrality as Sweden or Findland decided to join NATO?… Who are they afraid of being invaded?…Russia!

So YES… RUSSIA is the serious threat to free countries members or not of NATO…

The only "experts and enthusiasts o here" I see are you both… It is not good to start qualifying those who think differently… that only shows poor judgment and unjustified anger at the lack of good arguments.

"…Russia is about to invade western Europe but they are so poor they couldn't do it….. but they will do it anyway because they they plan too do it….. Putin is mad and knows they are too poor to do it….. but will do it. So get ready…."

Russia had already invade his European neighbors countries… Seeing how they do it… there is no doubt that they should continue trying without caring about the cost in lives. Because in Russia there is no true democracy… it is a totalitarian state led by an untouchable leader… those few who have shown themselves against were dragged to prison (even mothers with their babies in their arms)

I don't know if Putin is mad… but he shows that he doesn't care at all about the massacres, rapes and deaths that he causes with his expansionist desires… it seems to me that he is worse than crazy…

Armand

+1 Armand
Hungary in the 50s, Czechoslovakia in the 60s. The Russians are always a threat to Europe. Putin's army needs time to recover. Without the US, Ukraine will be forced to settle. Putin will look for more. You never turn your back on these guys. NATO is about Russia.

As Putin rebuilds and looks to the American elections, he will be making plans.

Tango & Tort +1 each … again …

Well it seems some here have forgotten history of the recent past. To Western Europe/NATO the Russians have been the traditional enemy since the end of WWII.

NATO/Western Europe does not see the PRC/CCP as big a threat. They are on the other side of the planet.

North Korea again on the other side of the planet. NATO never fought in the Korean War it was the UN under the USA's leadership. Including some future NATO members. When I was in the ROK, '22 months '84-'85, we still flew the UN flag on our FOB on the DMZ and elsewhere. BTW that war is not over … it's only a truce.

Western Europe may be threatened by islamic terrorists/jihadis again. The population of USA is very concerned about the Fed Gov't's sanctioned open borders. With terrorist being able to sneak in, criminals of all types, human trafficking, Chinese drugs being smuggled into the by the Latino cartels, using illegal aliens as cover, plus the thousands of Chinese[agents], etc. allowed into the USA. Are they here to go to Disneyland ?

FYI – NATO's entire existence was to stop the USSR/WP from attacking into Western Europe. But we may need to bring SEATO 2.0 with some new cast members. Just so Xi and the CCP thinks twice about invading Taiwan, etc.

To let Putin and Russia somehow to defeat Ukraine in some way, shape or form. May emboldened the West enemies even more than they already have. However, right now the depleted Russian forces are not capable to attack anyone. Save for the Ukraine. And again, the Russians have suffered huge losses for few gains. Regardless, what Putin's propaganda machine says.

NATO strikes $1.2 USD billion deal to restock allies' ammunition supplies

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Armand

But their military is so poor they can not defeat ukrain Yet they are so powerful they are going to invade western Europe. Ok then.

Its more likely that, if the west leadership is stupid and reckless enough(I think they are). They will send nato troops into western ukrain when it collapses and that will lead to a confrontation with russian troops and then we can all stand by to kiss our a---- goodbye.

Should (and Could) Hungary be Expelled From NATO?

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Armand

None of OTAN countries would send troops to Ukraine… they have two years to do this and they didn't … they are not stupid (as you constantly insist to confirm)…

Russians show as real stupid because they insist to invade Georgia and Ukraine…

Which countries NATO invade…?

And seeing the performance of Russia in Ukraine … What sick mind can believe that Russia is in a position to defeat NATO militarily?…

Armand

Tango +1

NATO will not send troops into Ukraine. The probability of that is very small.

And again, NATO's introduction in Western Europe was to deter the USSR/WP from crossing the IGB. During the Cold War, I know I was there in West German. And briefly on the IGB.

No one seriously believes Russia will or could invade anywhere. Their losses are massive in men & material. They lack the ability to fight modern maneuver combined arms warfare. We saw this not too long after they invaded about 2 years ago. They have high losses with little gains again, in 2 years of this conflict.

I'm pretty sure at the Infantry School and the Combined Arms Course, etc. Briefing this short evaluation at those schools, if that was an assignment. I'm pretty sure the briefing officer(s) would get GO.

But again, it is very highly unlikely that NATO will send actual troop, etc. to fight in Ukraine.

And that move could start WWIII. But some if they like they can believe WWIII is happening and kiss whatever body part they want goodbye.

To seriously bring up NATO starting WWIII seems to demonstrate more reading, study, etc. about this subject is required.

However, any good capable military would have OPLANs for many contingencies. Which would include Russian invading a NATO nation(s)… But if someone was not in the military like with many other things, does not know how OPLANs, etc. actually works.

I feel I have said something similar to all this before. Some should take notes, take things to improve their memory, get more sleep, etc. I'm getting the feeling my posts may be getting a bit redundant by now !

"I'm getting the feeling my posts may be getting a bit redundant by now"

Just about every time some one makes a comment about nato someone else feels the need to write another chapter of their military biography to respond to said comment. Before declaring in a rather patronising tone that they know better than every one else so every one should shut up and accept what some one says as gospel.

Well in a dissuasion people get to discuss things, that's how it works you see. Just following orders without cogitating doesn't work in discussions, that's just in the military.

nato would not be invading uke it would be moving in at the invite of its wise and brave leader to prevent unnecessary further loss of life. That's how it could work.

"I'm getting the feeling my posts may be getting a bit redundant by now" You said it cowboy.

Not writing a bio … but I thought I was making a point I was there during the Cold War. And my POV has some credibility vs someone who was not. Based on one's uninformed, misinformed, etc. comments. Which is fine, anyone can say the Earth is flat. Does not mean it is, AFAIK. But does not mean a comment countering that is not going to be made.

Never, ever said that anyone should not comment on any post or subject. Maybe you feel that since you never have served you are defensive about it ? That was not my intent. But if so, that is your problem. However, I certainly don't know what goes thru your mind. Or anyone else's …

Many of your comments seem to be skewed, incorrect, uninformed, even Anti-US, etc. But nothing stops you from saying what you believe. Even if some here may say you are wrong, etc. In my case and other Vets based on our experiences in uniform. Experience you don't have. Many of your comments makes that clear. But again, don't stop posting because of that.

And yes, wise leaders would try to stop unnecessary loss of life. But that only works if both sides agree to stop the killing. If not, e.g. Putin in the Ukraine, Hamas in Gaza, etc. stopping the killing only works if all sides agree. As we see in both examples … again, that is not going to happen if one does not want to stop the killing. I don't think that is hard concept understand.

That is how it works …

About following orders, again you lack the knowledge on many military concepts. E.g. In the US Military and I believe in all of NATO, you don't have to follow illegal orders. However, defending the IGB against the USSR/WP invading is not an illegal order.

As far as you calling me a cowboy, let me say – "Yippie Ki Yi Aa !!!

And note the American Cowboy is iconic in US History, and generally is not insulting. But you not being an American may not understand that. "Giddy Up!"

[Bill he is allowed to call me a Cowboy …]

"And note the American Cowboy is iconic in US History, and generally is not insulting"

I didn't mean it as an insult I meant it in a flippant way as you have taken it in fact. I wouldn't want to insult you, we disagree on this issue and there is robust discussion going both ways and among other members too but to me its no more than that non of it to be taken seriously.

Well if you put it that way … it's all good partner ! 👍👍

Senate GOP Meeting Devolved Into ‘Embarrassing Exhortations' for Ukraine Aid

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Armand

Some people are their own worst enemy …

A Ceasefire with Russia Will Condemn Millions of Ukrainians

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Armand

M777 Howitzer Back in Production

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Armand

Just like in Gaza, I don't see a ceasefire in Ukraine being done at this time. As the author of that article wisely pointed out you can't trust the Russians to adhere to any sort of ceasefire. Could say the same about islamic terrorists/jihadis in Gaza and elsewhere. Can't trust them either …

The M777 is a very good piece of FA. Cheaper and quicker to produce than the M109 155 SPFA, I'd believe. But as we see again FA is still the King of Battle …

The Dutch Solution

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Poland Sends Warmate to Ukraine

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Armand

I don't think the Senate meeting was embarrassing. It's a good thing to hear this group expressing varying positions and solutions, rather than marching in lockstep to an outsider.

And it's good to hear John McCain's name invoked again. A man who had walked the walk, stuck to his guns. When he moved to Arizona and ran for Congress after leaving the Navy, someone accused him of being a carpetbagger. He answered that he moved around a lot during his long career in military. The longest time he ever spent in one place was Hanoi.

🤔 Ukrainian Tigers?

Subject: The tigers who came for tea: 'World's biggest' cats go on rampage in Russia killing humans and eating dogs after Putin saved species from extinction


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Greece Supports Ukraine with Outdated Military Weapons Following Major US Defense Deal

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France secretly delivers to Ukraine two additional LRU rocket launcher systems

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Ukraine and Belgium sign MoU to cooperate in the defense sphere

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Germany Increases Military Aid to Ukraine in 2024 with Tanks – Air Defense Systems & Ammunition

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France Accelerates Production of CAESAR Howitzers to Strengthen Ukrainian Artillery Capabilities

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Belgium will provide military aid of 611 million euros to Ukraine in 2024

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Armand

I don't see any way that Ukraine wins this. The best that can be hoped for is that Putin dies or is offed, but I don't see any successor being any better.

Trump is right; this war will end in a day when he tells Ukraine to capitulate and let Russia keep its gains.

How lucky that you didn't live in 1940 in your country and were some kind of influential official…

Like any country that considers itself worthy of existence… Ukraine will not surrender without fighting to the last consequences…

imho… the only thing that can stop this senseless massacre is the Russian people when at some point they become aware of the ferocious bloodshed that they are suffering without any sense… otherwise… the Countries that understand the risk they run If Putin wins… must continue supporting Ukraine without economic and military material limits

Armand

The West Fears Putin Winning — And Losing

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How Russia Could Break Up NATO

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Armand

New US-made longer-range bomb expected to arrive as soon as Wednesday in Ukraine

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Armand

"imho… the only thing that can stop this senseless massacre is the Russian people when at some point they become aware of the ferocious bloodshed that they are suffering without any sense"

I wonder, did you reach the same opinion about the illegal invasion of Iraq Or were you taken in about the lie of the wmd? Did you even get to see the protests by millions of people who were not taken in by the lie. They are lying to you again about ukrain this time.

Oh! Yes… I have opinion since Ancient times invations… but this is not what we are talking about in this thread…

Protest by millions of people… were… in Russia? … on this side of the Planet only the same few nonconformists of everything support your point of view…

Both part are lying… all countries lies at War… some in a significant way, others in a more veiled way… but the Russians… are really shameless…

I recommend that on your next vacation you go visit them and stay for a period of at least a year… to see how it goes… or maybe you are from there?… given that you haven't even deigned to identify the country where you live… that says a lot…

Armand

Just thinking out loud:

So in Russian news is this incident portrayed as:

Russian Navy christens new Submarine! 🤔

Subject: Russian Missile Corvette Sunk by Swarm of Drones, Says Ukraine


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I don't think the Russian Navy is doing too well overall ?

Does The Navy's New Constellation Class Frigate Have Enough Vertical Launch Cells?

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Armand

Belgian company John Cockerill's CPWS could set new standard for future remote weapon systems

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NATO Support and Procurement Agency NSPA orders Saab AT4 antitank weapons

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French company Arquus showcases VAB Mk3 6x6 IFV

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Turkish OTOKAR's New Medium Tank

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US Marine Corps receives first ACV-30 armored fighting vehicle from BAE Systems

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Armand

Some very neat AFVs ! I like this kind of stuff !

How The US Army's New M10 Booker Light Tank Will Actually Be Used

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Armand

Yes, I've seen news about the new Booker Lgt. Tank. Replaces the 82d's old M551 Sheridan, finally some would say. It sure is an improvement being newer tech, etc. Like the M551 it is lighter and easy to deploy. A requirement a Light unit like the 82d would need. And IIRC may be units like the 10th MTN Div. may get some ? In any case, the Booker is to provide firepower to support the Infantry units. The tank's classic mission.

My concern is like the Army's M2 Bradley and USMC's LAV, plus even the M1 MBT had to be upgraded with more armor, etc. to increase survivability on the battlefield, especially in MOUT. The M1 even had a Tank Urban Survival Kit[TUSK]retrofitted to it.

However, I don't know if the M551 had anything like these upgrades ? Regardless, I hope the Booker does well if it has to be used in anger. It may have to be sand bagged like we did with our M113s. To increase survivability … ? Maybe ?

The Booker has ERA as well as can be deployed in large numbers and more quickly than the 72ton M1 MBT. Those are real advantages for the Booker.

How Drones Could Turn Submarines Into Underwater Aircraft Carriers

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Armand

NATO Buys Thousands of New AT4 Anti-Tank Weapons To Stop Russia

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Armand