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"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic


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Escapee Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2023 5:21 p.m. PST

I think the invasion of Ukraine was undertaken with poorly led forces. An historic blunder? Was a lesson learned? I would not bet on it. The man has a dream. I would never presume to turn my back on him for an instant.

We need to keep the war going so it can be won. The threat of Russian aggression effectively ended. Ukraine doesn't look like it will surrender. All the suffering they have endured, the blood and treasure expended in response to unprovoked international aggression will be wasted otherwise. No nation should be allowed to get away with invading another with such brutal force.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2023 8:25 p.m. PST

Tort +1

No one can answer the question. If the russian forces are so ramshackle and poorly led. How are they going to invade the eu? Why do we need to keep the war going with our taxpayers money?
I think we did, you just don't like the answers. And the war is continuing as Putin won't leave land that does not belong to Russia.

I'd think NATO realized with the unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine. Nothing has been seen like this since in Europe WWII. There still is a reason to have a bigger, better prepared military. The Russians right now are not a threat to NATO. Especially after being severely attrited by Ukraine.

But as we have learned from history, or should have, you must have a standing well trained military. As sooner or later it will be needed. The USA was woefully unprepared for WWI & WWII. And had to play catch up …

Plus the West has to remember. Russian is not a threat now, but what about 10-20 years from now. A zebra can't change its stripes. We already played that game after the end of the Cold War, for about 20 years. Then Russia went back to old habits left over from the USSR. What should we expect with an unrepentant KGB Agent in charge ? Who also is a gangster and wants to be one of the richest men in the world.

What could possibly go wrong ?

Along with China, Iran, North Korea and a host of islamic terrorists/jihadis are still around. Those are all good reasons to have a well-prepared standing military, e.g. the US/NATO should take note …

White hats and black hats again.
Well I was on active duty during the Cold War. I guess I'm still biased. The only hat I wore was an OD Green or Camo Patrol Cap. Still have'm both …

Tango0129 Dec 2023 10:56 p.m. PST

NATO Returning to Cold War Standards


link


M2 IFV More Useful Than a Tank


link


Armand

Ned Ludd30 Dec 2023 2:57 a.m. PST

"response to unprovoked international aggression"

It wasnt really unprovoked though was it? Especially if you live in the donbas region or are a russian speaker generally. That dosent take into account russias red lines on nato membership either. The fake minsk accord treaty that merkal told you about, that was just a plan for the west to help ukrain build up its forces to devistate donbas. These points just scratch the surface. You can not realistically say it was unprovoked.

"I think we did, you just don't like the answers".

No you haven't. You just said putin is crazy so he will. That is not an explanation it has shades of the weapons of mass destruction argument about it. At the begining of the conflict if the west had not demanded olensky fight on rather than honour the peace treaty he agreed it would have been over and the world could have returned to getting back to normal. The west has continued to push escalation, who knows what will happen. It seems like a direct confrontation between nato and russia is getting more likely and that will lead to a nuclear exchange, mostly in europe but the us will also be hit. All for the sake of a 5"2 comedian.

Tango0130 Dec 2023 5:11 p.m. PST

Seen what the Russian Missiles did yesterday to the civil population in Ukraine (again!)…

…I can't understand how you have the nerve to defend those bloody murderers of children (and kidnappers of them too)

Armand

Tango0130 Dec 2023 5:12 p.m. PST

U.S. President Biden Warns The US Military May Get Pulled Into A Direct Conflict With Russia

link

Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP30 Dec 2023 7:51 p.m. PST

You just said putin is crazy so he will. That is not an explanation it has shades of the weapons of mass destruction argument about it.
I didn't say that …?

Ned Ludd31 Dec 2023 2:48 a.m. PST

"Seen what the Russian Missiles did yesterday to the civil population in Ukraine (again!)…

They travel both ways you know or didn't they tell you that.

link

"I can't understand how you have the nerve to defend those bloody murderers of children (and kidnappers of them too)"

Not sure what you are talking about here. Is it the idf or hamas?
Anyway I have not defended any one. I have not been brainwashed by western propaganda like many here have I have taken the time to have a real look at the facts leading up to the ukrain problem they are all there for any one to find if you can be bothered.

nickinsomerset31 Dec 2023 5:35 a.m. PST

"Especially if you live in the donbas region or are a russian speaker generally" So said spewtin and another dictator said the same as he "liberated" German speaking areas of other nations.

The Minsk treaty allowed the Ukrainians time to train and re build to prevent a complete take over by spewtin.

"I have not been brainwashed by western propaganda like many" No you have been happily brainwashed by spewtin and a few internet cretins. Do you understand the concept and difference between Multiple and single source/ circular source reporting. Probable not as your god like spewtin tells you all you want to know, about a conflict and area you have never been near,

Tally Ho!

.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP31 Dec 2023 11:05 a.m. PST

Nick +1

Ned Ludd01 Jan 2024 8:35 a.m. PST

+1 Nicholas, another one of your well thought out wise and insightful posts.

"The Minsk treaty allowed the Ukrainians time to train and re build to prevent a complete take over by spewtin"

So you have finally realised/accepted that the war was pre planned and the west acted in bad faith, you have been denying it for the last two years. Now you admit the facts, well done. And well done Legion for supporting Nicholas' assessment.

Btw how sure are you I have never been near the area?

nickinsomerset01 Jan 2024 9:24 a.m. PST

"Btw how sure are you I have never been near the area?"

Very easy.

Without rearming Ukraine would have fallen to your friends. If I threaten to come to your house, give you a kicking and steal what you own, would you sit around and do nothing or take steps to stop me?

Ukraine was pre planning to defend itself, Russia busy planning to add the Ukraine to a new union, Russia broke the treaty and invaded.

Tally Ho!

Ned Ludd01 Jan 2024 9:38 a.m. PST

"Ukraine was pre planning to defend itself"

Its ironic the Austrian corporal used phrases like that.

Deleted by Moderator

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP01 Jan 2024 9:52 a.m. PST

Well, I guess you showed him!

nickinsomerset01 Jan 2024 10:20 a.m. PST

"Its ironic the Austrian corporal used phrases like that"

What was the Ukraine planning to do, a 3 day special operation to attack Russia?

Also ironic that your little hero used the same excuse as the Austrian Corporal to invade his neighbours.

Deleted by Moderator

Tally Ho!

Ned Ludd01 Jan 2024 10:26 a.m. PST

At least we can agree that the war was pre planned and the eu/us negotiated in bad faith re Minsk accords. Took you a long time to get there though.

nickinsomerset01 Jan 2024 11:21 a.m. PST

"At least we can agree that the war was pre planned"

A big difference between planning to defend and planning to invade, or in your world should the Ukraine have received no assistance, not been prepared and just accepted a Russian invasion? Hence the previous analogy,

Tally Ho!

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP01 Jan 2024 3:03 p.m. PST

Pre-Planned … yes … but the Russian's planning appears to be as bad as the rest of their military ops.

Ned Ludd01 Jan 2024 6:06 p.m. PST

" in your world should the Ukraine have received no assistance, not been prepared and just accepted a Russian invasion"

perhaps they should acted in good faith, honoured the Minsk accord and not had a war at all.

perhaps they should have honoured the peace deal olenski signed in April last year and ended the war then.

They seem to have a problem keeping their word don't they?

You have spent two years denying the west and ukrain acted in bad faith re the Minsk accord treaty and today admitted it is true. Having admitted that your whole argument and stance on the ukrain conflict is redundant. Your whole morale outrage performance here regarding the conflict is nothing but a sham and not worth bothering with.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP01 Jan 2024 9:03 p.m. PST

Regardless … who invaded the Ukraine ?

Deleted by Moderator

Ned Ludd02 Jan 2024 3:06 a.m. PST

Oh dear tantrum time, and you a military expert as well tsk tsk. Your arguments around the whole cause of the conflict are pudding, a hard hollow pudding. Stick to square bashing.

nickinsomerset02 Jan 2024 5:06 a.m. PST

Ludd continues to support spewtins invasion of a sovereign nation, trying to push the blame on the Ukraine and the failed Minsk Accord, an accord his hero never intended to stick to, and more so is upset that the Ukraine is standing up to the invader, and doing a good job of it.

"perhaps they should acted in good faith, honoured the Minsk accord and not had a war at all"

Meanwhile Spewtin himself said "never had a tradition of genuine statehood" and that "Ukraine was entirely created by Russia, more precisely Bolshevik communist Russia." So the whole defending the Russian speakers was a smoke screen,

He has still not answered the analogy put to him, other than a childish retort, and calling out a tantrum, something he is also guilty on this platform.

His arguments around the whole cause remain utter pish, considering it ok for spewtin to invade and despicable that the Ukraine would prepare to and resist the invasion,
Tally Ho!

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP02 Jan 2024 9:55 a.m. PST

Nick +1

Oh dear tantrum time, and you a military expert as well tsk tsk.
Addressing Me ? Really calling that a tantrum ? Albeit I can't remember what was SNIPPED … old fart

And I am not a Military Expert, if you are addressing me(?). I am a former well trained and experienced Co. Grade Officer. 10+ years in 4 Infantry Bns will do that. You want an expert, address GENs Ret. Kean, Petraeus, McChrystal, etc.

Tango0102 Jan 2024 3:45 p.m. PST

Germany mulls reintroduction of compulsory military service

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Armand

Tango0103 Jan 2024 2:45 p.m. PST

German Musings About a European Nuclear Deterrent

link

Armand

Tango0105 Jan 2024 9:35 p.m. PST

Germany Sends Another Military Aid Package To Ukraine

kyivpost.com/post/26333


Armand

Tango0105 Jan 2024 10:58 p.m. PST

Why America fell out of love with its Army

link

Armand

Tango0106 Jan 2024 11:03 p.m. PST

Is America the "New" Great Britain?

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US Army putting popular howitzer back into production


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Swedish Archer 155mm Howitzer Is Now Combat Proven in Ukraine Against Russian Forces

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Germany sends Marder 1A3 IFVs to equip two Ukrainian battalions


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CSM Industry from Slovakia to supply Ukrainian Army with T-55-based demining vehicle

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Germany Delivers First Skynex Air Defense System to Ukraine

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Armand

Tango0108 Jan 2024 11:00 p.m. PST

Russia: Georgia and the NATO Threat

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2024 9:34 a.m. PST

Why America fell out of love with its Army
That seems to be the case. Too bad now is the time you want the Army to be very well trained and can get the job. E.g. As has been said by our top leadership, The Military's #1 priority is not climate change. Demonstrates a total lack of what the Military's mission it.

Who wants to join an Army that is said to be systemically racist, Woke, DEI, CRT is on the training schedule, hunting down "White Supremacists", etc. which are few if any, does not keep the barracks and family to high standards, etc. ?

But they did find a lot of $ to change post names. When the barracks and family housing are in a major state of disrepair. That should have taken priority over changing names of military posts.

FWIW I do like the names of posts after the changes. But it should not have taken priority over taking care of troops and their families.

Leadership has to start at the very top …

IMO the article is spot on … it was written by a former high ranking Army officer. He was there … he knows the deal. But it appears most of those elected and appointed gov't officials tend to not know 💩.

Tango0110 Jan 2024 11:38 p.m. PST

America Will Have to Heavily Arm NATO's Six Frontline States If Ukraine Falters—Especially Finland


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Armand

Tango0111 Jan 2024 5:28 p.m. PST

Swedish Civil Defense Minister Tells Citizens To Prepare For War

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP11 Jan 2024 6:24 p.m. PST

No body likes Putin and the Russians. I'm shocked !! I tell you ! Shocked !!!

Tango0112 Jan 2024 11:23 p.m. PST

UK Prime Minister Sunak Makes A Surprise Visit To Ukraine. Pledges $3.2 USD Billion In Aid And Signs A 10 Year Security Agreement In Kyiv

YouTube link


bbc.com/news/uk-67954152

If Russia Beats Ukraine, America Will Have to Massively Rearm NATO's Eastern Flank

link

Armand

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP13 Jan 2024 11:46 a.m. PST

Legion, I think I agree with the article also, the more I think about it.

First, we agree to differ, I hope. I think that woke has very little to do with the issue. Older retired vets are sometimes politicized around this, and I am certainly not in favor of much of the content of that training as I understand it. Pronouns especially… so I get it.

But the DOD survey we have looked at here is pretty clear that it's not the issue.

I would still say the strong job market hurts recruiting. But this new idea of success and pride being lacking makes sense. I wonder what another survey would produce. Young people do not want the separation from family and friends, they don't want the loss of freedom and they are very afraid of death or injury. Several other related reasons.

But what if they were deeply moved to serve by their own emotions? And everyone thanked and encouraged them and expressed our own pride for their service? The military is a huge force and there will always be a percentage of criminal behavior, racism, harassment as there is in any large group, it's like a big city. But that's why the military has a law enforcement and justice system.

If joining the military gives you a strong sense of purpose, and provides decent food, housing, pay, merit based advancement,fair treatment, it stands to reason recruiting would improve. How to do this?

I have a niece whose boyfriend has now been a Marine for three years or so. He does not say much one way or the other, says woke training is not much of a thing for them if you ask him. But his morale seems kind of flat. I know it's not an easy life. Just one guy, but it makes me wonder…how does he define success? What do young people thing about the army's success or lack thereof?

More data needed…

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP13 Jan 2024 5:05 p.m. PST

We can agree to disagree … that is not a problem. You may be right about older Vets, we came from a different generation and culture.

Regardless I have to take the DOD survey as the true. Unless they screwed that up too.

And yes, the current market situation will always affect the number of people joining the Military.

I don't think the youth of today see America and American culture, etc. as not the same as it was years before. Some of your questions and comments sound like it to me. Which seems to me you may be right.

Regardless, the US must have a strong capable Military. As we see the world is still a very dangerous place. Again, the PRC/CCP, Russia, North Korea, etc. are still a threat to one level or another. Plus, the war on islamic terrorism continues … It never really stopped …

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP13 Jan 2024 6:01 p.m. PST

A million +1s…. Sad, that we are struggling with this. But I believe in the US military, and though leaders don't always come through, the institution is what matters. Belonging matters. Service matters. It's why we are still here.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP14 Jan 2024 12:31 p.m. PST

Agreed … New senior leadership may help … ?

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP14 Jan 2024 1:53 p.m. PST

Yes, definitely. But not too senior! And reasonably honest.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP14 Jan 2024 7:15 p.m. PST

Yeah there are already too many old farts in DC now !

Tango0116 Jan 2024 4:51 p.m. PST

U.S. Wants To Use Seized Russian Assets As Reparation Bonds For Ukraine

link


Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP16 Jan 2024 6:32 p.m. PST

Works for me ! The Russians/Putin can't be punished enough for their unprovoked attack.

Tango0117 Jan 2024 5:24 p.m. PST

NATO's Top Military Officer Says NATO Countries Need To Be On Red Alert For War And "Expect The Unexpected"

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Leaked German Military Document Outlines A War Scenario Between NATO & Russia

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link

Armand

Tango0117 Jan 2024 11:34 p.m. PST

French President Macron Announces Delivery of 40 SCALP-EG Missiles to Ukraine


picture


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Sweden considers sending a battalion to Latvia to strengthen NATO presence

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Ukraine's US-Donated M1A1 Abrams Tanks Enhanced with Advanced Armor on the Battlefield

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Czech company Isolit-Bravo provides Trail-Blazer UGVs to Ukraine

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Armand

Ned Ludd18 Jan 2024 4:02 a.m. PST

"U.S. Wants To Use Seized Russian Assets As Reparation Bonds For Ukraine"

When you have finished whooping and a hollering about this. May be you will give the implications a moments thought.

Technically its a declaration of war, it is also illegal. Ultimately the long term or probably near term results will mean the us eu shoots itself in the foot economically, strategically and hastens its own continued decline.

The formation of the brics will increase as nations around the world will see that their assets are not safe in western hands as they can just be removed from them at the whim of the power brokers. They will go else where, guess where they will go.

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2024 6:47 a.m. PST

The Brics gang is not too impressive as a whole right now. I doubt we will see any such flight. People like making money.

Most of the world is not on Russia's side. Their aggression was a violation of international law and their conduct since has been criminal against civilians. Their war. Is barbaric, maybe their assets will help the children of Ukraine survive Russian aggression against them.

Ned Ludd18 Jan 2024 7:45 a.m. PST

"Most of the world is not on Russia's side"

Are you sure about that? Only the eu us are bankrupting themselves and making life more difficult for their citizens in the EU case anyway.

"criminal against civilians". Are they doing what Israel is doing? "violation of international law" Are they doing what the coalition did in Iraq? I dont think so.

If they steal assets they will collapse the financial order of the word. Dose the word Illegal mean any thing too them?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2024 9:51 a.m. PST

Since the weak, out of touch US leadership has not given Ukraine what is needed to defeat the Russians. They need to do all they can off the battlefield to negatively affect Putin and his Russian cronies.

Sadly, Putin and his minions will never be brought to justice for their war crimes.

Ned Ludd18 Jan 2024 1:47 p.m. PST

You have a very vague approach to what you consider a war crime. It seems to be that anything the us or its allies do is not a war crime but everything russia does is a war crime.
Is Israel committing war crimes?
Was the ukrain rocket attack on civilian targets in russia a war crime?
Was the us helicopter machine gunning Iraqi civilians a war crime?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2024 6:05 p.m. PST

Well we can argue what are war crimes and who is committing them, etc., etc. In the Infantry Officer's Adv Course, way back in my youth we spent a number of days with JAG explaining this whole war crime topic, the CGs, etc.

So one can ask questions all they want. And point fingers every which way.

Is Israel committing war crimes?
Was the ukrain rocket attack on civilian targets in russia a war crime?
Was the us helicopter machine gunning Iraqi civilians a war crime?
Short answer to all that … maybe … ? Who is reporting those crimes, are they reliable sources, what really happened, etc. The "fog of war" raises its ugly head everywhere.

Do non-combatants get killed in war ?

Were those killed purposely targeted ?

Or were they just in the wrong place at the wrong time ?

Were they mis-ID'd as combatants ?

Or were they used as human meat shields like Hamas ?

I don't have a very vague approach to what I consider a war crime. Just like in any court of law proof is the bottom line. And that "proof" may not always be black & white.

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