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"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic


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Escapee Supporting Member of TMP15 Dec 2023 3:49 p.m. PST

The admin has given support to Israel from day one in every way. They were perfectly appropriate to advise the IDF on the issue of too many civilian casualties causing image problems and loss of support. How much aid have we given them over the years? This was not going to work as a long term war that destroyed Gaza, even though we knew how difficult it would be to fight Hamas through human shields.


I give the IDF credit for acknowledging they killed three of the hostages today, but it will hurt political support for them even more. And I give POTUS credit for sticking with Israel even though it has cost him dearly in political support. While I disagree with him on many things, especially the border, he represents the moderate middle better than anyone else these days.

Israel needs to start wrapping this up. But this leaves me with a serious issue with the current US admin. Now is the time to deal with Iran – the real problem. How about it?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP15 Dec 2023 6:22 p.m. PST

When/if the f15s are sent, there are no airfields suitable left for them to use.
F16s I thought … last I heard they in the region and the pilots are going thru training. These aircraft, like CE equipment, more M1s, etc. should have there and operational many months ago. IIRC there are usable airfields in Ukraine. And ADA/ADA will intercept incoming missiles, etc. if targeted. That is the way it works …

Now if the shoe was on the other foot what would the us do?
You mean like US supporting the Muj with Stingers, etc. to kill Russians in A'stan ? Or do you mean in both the Korean War and Vietnam War. Russia and China had thousands of "advisors" in country. And in some cases, actual Russian pilots flying missions during the Korean War. Plus thousands of Chicoms on the ground … killing UN troops. Mostly Americans.

Regarding the draft, these are men too old for active military service and clearly not as enthusiastic as linsey graham. The comparison with us youth that was made is silly. They could be made fit enough, these poor souls on the otherhand are doomed.
You really don't understand some things about the US Military ? Again these are not the Greatest Generation. The Congress would most likely never allow a draft. And if they did many of the recruits couldn't get fit. And they wouldn't want to. They'd rather go to prison or Canada. The rich kids would never get drafted. There would be riots in the streets … like during Vietnam. Mommy & Daddy's $ will keep them safe.

You miss the main factor as we see in Ukraine. Motivation … silly … no … reality. Doomed ? You mean like the Russian poorly trained, led, motivated, supplied etc. troops ?

The US Military maybe short troops in some branches. Poorly lead from the very top … But those US troops are still some of the best Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Pilots, etc. on the planet.

And yes I am way too old and crippled to be of any use. old fart Like many of my comrades. However, most of us never resigned our commissions. Of course, if we all were recalled to duty… well … we may have been Bad Bleeped text decades ago. Not so much now ..

More and more I read some comments here … I suspect some don't know of what they speak. But of course, everybody is free to make comments & posts. That is what forums like this are for. If we cross the line Bill will let you know.

Tango0115 Dec 2023 10:52 p.m. PST

Another country Russia invaded is worried a new naval base is going to drag it into the Ukraine war

link


Armand

Ned Ludd16 Dec 2023 2:28 a.m. PST

Legion 4 you are missing my point (my Fault).

If the us were in conflict with another country say Yugoslavia and a third country say russia allowed serb planes supplied by russia to launch attacks from russian air fields. what response would the us be towards russia?

Drafts. My point is these men are too old. If they have to call on these then they are running out of men. Volkssturm.

BTW muj support at the time was one of those little secrets the us likes. It could be denied like blowing oil pipes up.
The current us admin obsession with Putin will lead them to blunder into direct confrontation. May be they want it I dont know, but the "poorly led, with no idea about combined arms, low morale out of ammo russian army" seem to be winning. Dont they? Dispite what all the "experts" on this forum claim.

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP16 Dec 2023 9:04 a.m. PST

The Russians only seem to be not losing. In a conventional war against NATO, I think these particular forces would have folded like a 2$ suitcase.

Of course we have opinions here, not inside info. We have no idea what elite units Putin holds in reserve, for example. But immense Russian casualties almost certainly indicates a less than top notch military.

The draft would not work in the US today. As Legion says, too many would dodge it. The remaining less affluent members of society would carry the burden. It would alienate too many.

We will always need human infantry, IMO, but we are moving toward more automated equipment and this will require some new types of personnel. And fewer. Like naval vessels needing smaller and smaller crews now.

But we have to get our domestic house in order to be able to reach today's youth for the volunteer forces. And how do we find people who are reasonably fit? Pay, benefits, learning opportunities have to balance out risk. Risk goes down if you are better trained and equipped than your adversaries. The army still does not quite know how to sell itself to the demographic it wants.

If you think we have problems, think about Russia and China. They grab whoever they want and they face similar challenges for many of the same reasons. Chinese woke training is far greater than in the US, but I doubt that every guy forced into the army is buying the party line. And they have a major demographic issue.

The Chinese are the ones who are going to end up with an army of old people for a while as 50 years of the one child policy catches up to them on military age population.

Russia is building its own demographic hole. This is another Afghanistan for them, only major in scale. Even after emptying the prisons for cannon fodder, they will need a long while to come back from whatever hollow victory they can snatch here.

Ned Ludd16 Dec 2023 12:40 p.m. PST

Im not talking about the us draft. its not always about the us you know!

All the things you accuse russia of doing are actually been done by the ukrain government. Did you see the video of the conscripts or the videos of boys/men been dragged off the street?

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP16 Dec 2023 2:45 p.m. PST

Yes…there is no doubt that Ukraine is in trouble numbers wise, Russia is nearly 4 times the size.

Tango0116 Dec 2023 5:02 p.m. PST

If China decided to invade Vietnam… and the Vietnamese decided to resist… Wouldn't it be logical to see young and not so young recruits preparing to go defend their homeland?


Here what is not understandable to Western minds is how the hell the Russian population accepts that their soldiers are massacred in a war that is not a war… just a Special Military Operation… someone believes in Russia that Ukraine is really going to be finally occupied in its entirety?…


Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP16 Dec 2023 8:30 p.m. PST

what response would the us be towards russia?
Depends on the top leadership. Going to war with Russia another nuclear armed nation would be the very last resort …

BTW muj support at the time was one of those little secrets the us likes. It could be denied like blowing oil pipes up.
Secret … in the middle of a conflict, many things are classified. You must know that …

But shortly afterwards, books have been written, movies made[watch Charlie Wilson's War], the History Channel has documentaries on it, etc.

Oh BTW … the US did not blow up the pipeline. With the current admin in the WH, being very risk adverse. Highly unlikely the POTUS and his admin would go for that. He was slow supporting the Ukraine with the weapons they needed. Why ? This WH was afraid of upsetting Putin.

The current us admin obsession with Putin will lead them to blunder into direct confrontation.
Again that is incorrect. Again, the current Admin is very much not wanting to be confrontational. E.g. Iran's proxies firing missile at US troops in Iraq and Syria. And the US response was tiny. Having little to no effect. As those US troops have been attacked by those Iranian proxies about 100 times. Again, the US Admin/leadership is risk adverse, nonconfrontational, weak, feckless, etc.

Targets not only should be the proxies but Iran's military, oil facilities, nuke sites, etc. No troops on the ground … just TLAMs, drones etc. laying waste to enemy targets.

May be they want it I dont know, but the "poorly led, with no idea about combined arms, low morale out of ammo russian army" seem to be winning.
Again, Russia has taken very heavy losses with very few gains. I'm pretty sure that's not winning.

Dispite what all the "experts" on this forum claim.
Well besides I listen to interviews, etc., of Ret COLs and GENs, etc. … I generally agree with repeat what they say. They know their stuff. Some of them may have written the doctrine, tactics, etc. that I was trained on.

And based on my training and experience of 10+ years as an Infantry Officer. With many schools, courses, FTXs, deployments, etc., etc. worldwide during that time. As well as my study of military history since I was in high school.

I am no expert; I was only a CPT … but I have a fairly good working knowledge of the art & science of warfare. As do many Vets and others here do.

Simply put … you don't have the "street creds" for this topic IMO. As I know you are not an expert either. But my training and experience gives me a bit of an "edge". I'd think …

But as always everybody is entitled to their own opinion(s) …

Tort +1

Ned Ludd17 Dec 2023 2:38 a.m. PST

"Well besides I listen to interviews, etc., of Ret COLs and GENs, etc. … I generally agree with repeat what they say. They know their stuff. Some of them may have written the doctrine, tactics, etc. that I was trained on"

They and nato forces have been fighting what amount to colonial wars for the last 30ish years. Look at how their tactics and equipment has worked in ukrain. it hasn't.
Ukrain forces were trained by nato nations in nato doctrine given nato equipment. look how it worked out against a modern force fighting ww2 intensity battles as opposed to insurgents in sandals.

"Simply put … you don't have the "street creds" I dont claim too. But by your logic only people who have been in the forces understand whats going on and only their opinion holds water. Lord help us all then. I can think of a few instances where that logic didn't workout too well. What we need are people who can make peace and bring it to an end.

" Wouldn't it be logical to see young and not so young recruits preparing to go defend their homeland"?

Maybe, but forcing them to do it against their will amounts to something else. The thing is not everyone in the ukrain is behind the government and its leaders, as we are starting to see.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP17 Dec 2023 1:00 p.m. PST

They and nato forces have been fighting what amount to colonial wars for the last 30ish years.
I don't remember seeing that. How many counties has the US occupied in that time frame ?

Ukrain forces were trained by nato nations in nato doctrine given nato equipment. look how it worked out against a modern force fighting ww2 intensity battles as opposed to insurgents in sandals.
It worked pretty well as again the Russians have taken heavy losses for few gains. Look at current frontline. Has not advanced much since Day One. And the body count stacks up …

IF the Russians were success in this war, they would be laying siege to Kyiv, etc. They are no were near there.

As afar as fighting an insurgency, you should know it takes a different set of tactics and doctrine. Which the US also executed well. We were trained for both types of warfare. However, if the national gov't of the country we are supporting is not all in, e.g. Vietnam, A'stan and Iraq. The US and its allies can only continue to kill the insurgents in large number until being ordered to withdraw.

Let's have a short discussion on insurgency …

1) It is the insurgents' backyard, and they have support from some of locals. They don't have to go anywhere …

2) The insurgent knows sooner or later the "invader" will get tired of losing "blood & treasure" and will leave. Go back home.

The longer the war lasts the better it is for the insurgent. All the insurgent has to do is to continue to kill off the invader. The invader will continue to kill the insurgents. But, in almost all cases the insurgent/home team has the numbers to take huge losses. And continue fighting. E.g. the Tet Offensive, '68.

But by your logic only people who have been in the forces understand whats going on and only their opinion holds water. Lord help us all then. I can think of a few instances where that logic didn't workout too well.
IMO however those who have served have a better appreciation of what actually occurs on the ground, etc. And all political leaders have military and intel advisors. I will take a Vet's or active-duty individuals' word, etc., generally over someone who has never served. Not sorry … that is has been my experience.

Not saying that some of those who have not served are not well read, capable of talking intelligently of the military, history and war, etc. Like many here plus well-known historians that have not served.

And generally, peace only comes about when the enemy no longer has the assets and will to continue to resist. E.g. Germany in both wars and Japan in WWII. Then the politicians can make the peace. Peace at any cost is no better than war at any cost. E.g. Get it the Ukraine does not want to be under Russia's boot as before. Like many of the former WP …

but forcing them to do it against their will amounts to something else. The thing is not everyone in the ukrain is behind the government and its leaders, as we are starting to see.
Like in Russia, many forced into the meatgrinder by Russian incompetent leadership.

Ned Ludd17 Dec 2023 3:08 p.m. PST

"I don't remember seeing that. How many counties has the US occupied in that time frame" ?
Iraq (After an illegal invasion)
Afghanistan.

" Look at current frontline. Has not advanced much since Day One. And the body count stacks up"
Russia holds the regions it wanted and defeated the counter attack looks like they are getting ready to advance further.

"IF the Russians were success in this war, they would be laying siege to Kyiv"
They are not crazy enough to do that, and wont have too.

"As afar as fighting an insurgency, you should know it takes a different set of tactics and doctrine"
When was last time us troops attempted to hold a trench line against modern artillery and tank attack?

"IMO however those who have served have a better appreciation of what actually occurs on the ground, etc"
I agree. The politics are a different issue.

"And generally, peace only comes about when the enemy no longer has the assets and will to continue to resist."
That will be ukrain.

Tango0117 Dec 2023 10:24 p.m. PST

Lockheed Martin Facing A Problem To Deliver F-35s Due To A Shortage Of A 'Handful Of Key Components'

link

US Military To Gain Access To 15 Finnish Military Bases On The Russian Border

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Active-Duty U.S. Troop Numbers Sink To Less Than 1.3 million, The Smallest Military In Over 80 Years

link

Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP18 Dec 2023 4:26 p.m. PST

Ned, Ned, Ned …

Where do I start … ?

Iraq (After an illegal invasion)

Afghanistan.

The first GW was sanctioned by the UN, IIRC. An illegal invasion … like the way Russian did with Ukraine…

The second GW I thought as time went on was a mistake. But it did get rid of a ruthless, sadistic, dictator/tyrant and his sons. Iraq should have been happy about being liberated … But guided by religious, ethnic, tribal centuries old hatreds. They went back to old habits.

Obama pulled the US troops out. Against the GENs/ADMs advice. Then ISIS grew in the vacuum. The Iraqi troops could fight effectively[like in A'stan]. Their gov't was splintered. So, the US[and allies] went back into stop the slaughter, medieval barbaric genocide that was going on. And liberate Iraq again …

The US troops are in Iraq and Syria to ensure that ISIS won't come back to haunt us or anyone else. 2500 troops in Iraq and 900 in Syria. Because again the Iraqi gov't and military could not be relied on to keep ISIS in check. The US troops there kill some ISIS leaders and minions every so often there.


GENs/ADMs told the POTUS that the US should keep 2500 troops in A'tan. Along with the NATO contingents. Operating from Bagram. But we see how with ignoring the Military and Intel Officers' sound advice. That the withdrawal was a debacle. The Military, etc. did AARs, etc. but the only ones who think it was a success was the POTUS and his Admin. It was cluster Bleeped text beyond belief. Losing 13 good US Service members. Which should never have died.

Russia holds the regions it wanted and defeated the counter attack looks like they are getting ready to advance further.
I highly doubt with the high losses the Russians have suffered that they will be able to launch an offensive of any real size. As all the other times the Russians attempted to advance and take more terrain. They would be repulsed again with high losses for no gains.

They are not crazy enough to do that, and wont have too.
Did you miss at the beginning of the war they attempted to take Kyiv and many other towns and cities ? They wanted all of the Ukraine. But with their incompetence they were pushed back to almost where they started. Are we watching the same war ?

When was last time us troops attempted to hold a trench line against modern artillery and tank attack?
Hmmm US troops in Syria and Iraq are taking incoming almost daily.

The US and allies fought against Iraq tanks/AFVs in both Gulf Wars. We know how to kill tanks …


A tank attack ? Are those crewed by Russians ? Based on what I have seen the Russians would take very heavy losses. During the Cold War, we trained many, many times to defeat the USSR/WP if they crossed the IGB.

As Infantrymen we trained all the time to kill USSR/WP tanks/AFVs. With a variety of weapons and tactics. We were trained to fight modern mobile combined are warfare. Tanks, Infantry, AT vehicles, FA, Gunships and CAS. Working together to stop the USSR's/WP's advance. I know…I was there for 8 years training to stop the "Red Hordes".

I was also in the ROK 2 years training to fight the North Koreans if they crossed the DMZ. A lot like training to fight the Russians, but with less tanks.

And our tech is better now. The Russians regardless of their tech are demonstrating they don't know how fight modern warfare.

As far as the US troops defending in a trench line against Tanks, well we were trained to do that. Again using combined arms. As the Communists would be advancing. NATO aircraft would be flying CAP. Using radar homing missiles to take out their ADA/AAA sites. And Dogfighting if need be.

CAS would start to attrite the Communists. One of our priority targets was their ADA/AAA. To free up the skies for the strike aircraft and Gunships.

NATO FA of all types would open up as they advanced. Much of their FA would have been taken out with CAS. Or CB fires …

As they continued to advance, Gunships hovering behind cover would pop-up and further attrite them. Then as the Gunships move to other cover. A-10s would be making gun runs and firing missiles then pull up.

The Gunship would pop-up then open up with all their firepower. Then the A-10s would swoop in again. This tactic would continue as long as the ammo lasted. Then they'd go back to refuel and rearm.

Then the Tanks and long range AT weapons would open up. By that time the Communists would have significantly attrited. Few if any would make it our defensive lines. They may run into minefields also. Where the Infantry would open up with all the firepower they had.

"IMO however those who have served have a better appreciation of what actually occurs on the ground, etc."
I agree.
Yes you do agree. It is only logical and reasonable. I am going into detail maybe wasting my time telling you of my training and experience. As you may not know all of that. But … It was my job … of course. And took it seriously. As one day all the training would have to be tested in an actual war.

The politics are a different issue.
Of that there is no doubt. here

"And generally, peace only comes about when the enemy no longer has the assets and will to continue to resist."
That will be ukrain.
The Fat Lady didn't sing yet …

Tango0118 Dec 2023 4:56 p.m. PST

Former Ukrainian Ambassador To London Believes Britain Could Send Troops Into Ukraine In Case Of "Catastrophic Events"

link

Profit Outlook For The US Defense Industry Looks Bright In 2024

link


Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2023 12:28 p.m. PST

Profit Outlook For The US Defense Industry Looks Bright In 2024

War is good for business…
War is bad for business…

No matter how bad it gets, somebody make a profit …

Wonder how many of our elected and appointed gov't officials have stock in that industry ?

Tango0119 Dec 2023 4:33 p.m. PST

For The First Time Since World War II Germany Will Deploy Troops (To Lithuania)

link

Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2023 7:01 p.m. PST

Well they are NATO … and this time they are on our side …

Will Putin invade Lithuania looking for Nazis there too ?

Tango0125 Dec 2023 10:59 p.m. PST

European Intelligence Thinks Russia Might Attack Europe During The Winter Of 2024-2025 If The U.S. Finds Itself "Without A Leader" Following The 2024 U.S. Presidential Election

link

Armand

Ned Ludd26 Dec 2023 4:21 a.m. PST

Ozz intelligence say Russia will invade us through Alaska if the correct president isnt (elected).

link

Swingfire Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2023 7:17 a.m. PST

@Ned:

Is that "us" or "US"? :-)

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2023 7:26 p.m. PST

say Russia will invade us through Alaska if the correct president isnt (elected).
Fantasy … what assets do they have left ? Not enough to do an invade AK.

And it will require an amphibious invasion. They like the PRC/CCP has never done that before … One of the most difficult operations a military can do.

It has to be obvious; Russia lacks the assets to even defeat the Ukraine. Where are they going to get an amphib operations force ?

Tango0126 Dec 2023 10:42 p.m. PST

Russia and China are on the brink of a military alliance that could overwhelm the US… (and the rest of us)


link

Armand

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2023 10:30 a.m. PST

Well, they have the nukes, but Russia can't overwhelm Ukraine never mind the US. But if we turn tail in a year, we could set Putin up for a resurgence.

Ned Ludd27 Dec 2023 2:40 p.m. PST

"It has to be obvious; Russia lacks the assets to even defeat the Ukraine"
"t Russia can't overwhelm Ukraine never mind the US. But if we turn tail in a year, we could set Putin up for a resurgence"
"European Intelligence Thinks Russia Might Attack Europe During The Winter Of 2024-2025"


Make your mind up. they are either going to overrun all Europe or they are s*** and carnt even beat ukrain. Which one is it it carnt be both can it?

"Profit Outlook For The US Defense Industry Looks Bright In 2024"

Now isnt that a suprise?

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2023 2:59 p.m. PST

I thought I did make up my mind – in about one second. But that doesn't mean the score can't change if the US bails out because of domestic politics. It's a discussion not a math test.

Ned Ludd27 Dec 2023 3:20 p.m. PST

But all the propaganda states that russia is going to invade eastern europe if ukrain falls to them, yet at the same time propaganda says russian forces are s^^^ with s*** equipment and ukrain is winning. So you need to send them all your money.
So Which is it? Because it cannot be both.

Tango0127 Dec 2023 5:26 p.m. PST

Why not?… When a country has at its head a character with a dangerous mind who feels frustrated by its ideals of expansionism… it would not be out of place to think that it can try to expand on another little country like Moldova, Georgia or similar… that of course would immediately activate the European self-defense treaty…

There are many examples in history of tyrants who acted in this way…


It becomes much more dangerous if this nefarious character feels that he is supported by China in his expansionist designs.

Although maybe… ancient Chinese wisdom makes them end up laughing quietly watching how two of their main enemies end up destroying each other.

Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2023 6:43 p.m. PST

Which one is it it carnt be both can it?

Let me say again … Russia does not have the assets to attack NATO, even before all the losses they suffered fighting Ukraine. Now they will be lucky to hold the little land they occupy in Ukraine. Which is not much more then when they started 2 years ago. Do you know how many AFVs the Russians have left after two years of war with Ukraine ? Not enough …

Plus based on the Russian military "prowess". US/NATO would finish the job Ukraine started. IMO based on my training, experience, study etc. Russia is no longer the threat they were … But as we see with their performance in Ukraine. The US/NATO would hand them their Bleeped text

Tango0127 Dec 2023 10:49 p.m. PST

Washington's ‘Ship of Fools' Delude Themselves About Russia's Intent


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US-Donated M109A6 Paladin Howitzers Now Operational with Ukraine's 93rd Brigade in Bakhmut Sector


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Ukraine to receive Estonia Vegvisir's Core situational awareness system

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Ukraine seeks to acquire French CAESAR Howitzers Integrating Artificial Intelligence Technology

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Swedish SAAB RBS 70 Missile in Ukraine Demonstrates High Anti-Drone Capabilities Against Russian UAVs


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Germany to provide €11.00 EUR billion in military aid to Ukraine until 2028


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US seeks Japanese-made Patriot Missiles to aid Ukraine

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Ukraine receives new Patriot air defense missile battery from Germany


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German company KNDS offers first fully automated artillery system RCH155 to Ukrainian army

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Armand

Ned Ludd28 Dec 2023 2:19 a.m. PST

"Why not?… When a country has at its head a character with a dangerous mind who feels frustrated by its ideals of expansionism"

Nato has extended east to russian borders like they said they wouldn't do in the early 1990s. Does russia just need to accept the will of nato? It is the west that has caused the whole situation in ukrain by arrogantly disregarding treaties and pushing russia to its red lines.

"Plus based on the Russian military "prowess". US/NATO would finish the job Ukraine started. IMO based on my training, experience, study etc. Russia is no longer the threat they were … But as we see with their performance in Ukraine. The US/NATO would hand them their Bleeped text"

Natos way of war has been to bomb the c*** out of a place, civilians. military the lot. Russia has tried to avoid this way of war in ukrain, they could have done that a year ago and haven't. Hasn't it ever crossed your mind as to why they havnt done that?

Ukranians fight with nato weapons and are trained in nato tactics. its not going well is it.


"Russia does not have the assets to attack NATO"

So why are russia going to invade europe next then? According to western propaganda.

" When a country has at its head a character with a dangerous mind who feels frustrated by its ideals of expansionism"

Russia has not responded to many of the provocations of the west in the last 2 years. Why would they suddenly decide to take on nato when russia has a c*** military compared to nato?

I am afraid gentlemen, your arguments are all baloney.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP28 Dec 2023 9:56 a.m. PST

So many things just posted there is just plain wrong, inaccurate, biased, misinformation, etc.

And no I think someone else is having baloney and drank the koolaid A lot of it …

SBminisguy28 Dec 2023 10:29 a.m. PST

"Why not?… When a country has at its head a character with a dangerous mind who feels frustrated by its ideals of expansionism"

Nato has extended east to russian borders like they said they wouldn't do in the early 1990s. Does russia just need to accept the will of nato? It is the west that has caused the whole situation in ukrain by arrogantly disregarding treaties and pushing russia to its red lines.

Ya know how Putin could get rid of NATO? Nothing. Literally nothing -- stop invading his neighbors, stop conducting cyberwarfare on his neighbors, stop threatening them, and stop conducting assassination ops on their soil. Do that and the reason for NATO fades, and the institution which was on its last legs until he invaded Georgia in 2008 would also fade. His actions alone keep NATO alive.

Ned Ludd28 Dec 2023 10:47 a.m. PST

Fact remains, Nato has extended east to russian borders like they said they wouldn't do in the early 1990s. Does russia just need to accept the will of nato? It is the west that has caused the whole situation in ukrain by arrogantly disregarding treaties and pushing russia to its red lines.

"So many things just posted there is just plain wrong, inaccurate, biased, misinformation, etc"

Thats right. All the things you posted.

I still dont get how the c*** russian forces who are no match for nato are about to invade the EU if they cannot beat ukrain. What logic do you use?

Tango0128 Dec 2023 10:48 p.m. PST

A slew of new conflicts could erupt in 2024, analysts say — while the world is watching Gaza and Ukraine


link

Armand

UshCha29 Dec 2023 2:06 a.m. PST

Ned Ludd With the insane no logic need apply. Sputin is still after all Ukraine even though he gcan't have it. A rabid mind is just that no logic. He could just decide to attack the EU, he would lose but logic never worked for him if it did hw eould not have invaded Ukraine and even if he g=die he would have given up after it failed in 3 days. Logic has no truck with the perverts mind.

H and R29 Dec 2023 3:12 a.m. PST

Ned your points don't really make much sense to me.
"Fact remains, NATO has extended east to Russian borders like they said they wouldn't do in the early 1990s."
NATO has always had a border with either the USSR or Russian since it was established, there is nothing new in this. Apparently during the discussion between the USA and USSR about German reunification the expansion of NATO was discussed but as far as I know there are no agreements or treaty, please tell me if that wrong, the name of the treaty and who signed it, if not they didn't agree not to expand.
"Does Russia just need to accept the will of NATO? "
The simple answers is yes, Russia should get no say in what alliance other nations join, its not the will of NATO but the desire of the nations to join which fuels the expansion. If it was a better neighbour perhaps there wouldn't be so many nations wanting to join. Russia could have applied to join; it chose not to.
The suggestion that NATO would invade Russia is just silly and you know it, under what circumstance would all the nations of NATO agree to invade Russia, so who joins and where the border is irrelevant.
To answer the last point Russia starting a war you think it's can't win. That wouldn't be the first example of a country starting a war they are unlikely to win, just look at Japan declaring war on the USA. A lot of people would die which hopefully can be avoided, perhaps if we had just let Ukraine join 2008 none of this would have happened, Russia hasn't invaded Finland again yet.
I have no idea why you think Russia is doing the "right" thing in invading Ukraine but it's not in my view. It certainly hasn't stopped NATO expansion quite the reverse.

Ned Ludd29 Dec 2023 3:15 a.m. PST

"Logic has no truck with the perverts mind"

I agree.


YouTube link

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Ned Ludd29 Dec 2023 3:28 a.m. PST

"the desire of the nations to join which fuels the expansion. If it was a better neighbour perhaps there wouldn't be so many nations wanting to join. Russia could have applied to join; it chose not to"

Now since you quot examples from history. What happened to Cuba when it wanted to cozy up with the ussr?

Who organised the orange revolution? Before you answer remember its on record.

Who was behind the attempted coup in serbia recently?

"know there are no agreements or treaty, please tell me if that wrong, the name of the treaty and who signed it"

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Andy ONeill29 Dec 2023 4:32 a.m. PST

The whole reason NATO was created was to protect it's members from Soviet expansion.
Most Western tanks are still designed to defend against hordes of soviet tanks. Russian tanks are still small cheap tanks designed to be part of that attacking horde.

Trying to paint Russia as anything but the aggressor here is just lipstick on a pig.
Whatever you do, it still goes oink.
And in this case of course, tries to expand irrationally.
Until it's sliced up.

Putin should give it up.
You Russian shills should give it up.

Ned Ludd29 Dec 2023 4:42 a.m. PST

Facts don't interest any of you do they? You just disregard them and go straight to fantasy and insults. You never address inconvenient truths.

How is Russias ramshackle army going to invade the eu if it cant beat ukrain? No one has answered that conundrum yet.

H and R29 Dec 2023 7:34 a.m. PST

Hi Ned
Interesting enough to ask but are you saying these are right or wrong the behaviour and assuming you think they are wrong how would that make invading Ukraine right? But to answer your questions
Now since you quote examples from history. What happened to Cuba when it wanted to cozy up with the ussr?
It did cozy up to the USSR and the USA imposed sanctions, it funded a half-arsed exile invasion, what it didn't was invade and add Cuba to the USA
Who organised the orange revolution?
I am not sure there are many conflicting reports so I have no idea by what you mean on record, I would guess everybody was involved from the KGB to the CIA and many others. The most significant fact is it happened because Yanukovych tried to fix the result and got found out and lost in the re-run order by the Ukraine courts. Again, nobody invaded a country and added it to their territory.
I wasn't aware of any coup attempt in Serbian, did a quick google and seems there is some disputes and demonstration about the local elections in Belgrade. Let me know if you have more info, again no invasion by NATO or annexation.
But you still don't explain why Russia has the "right" to invade the Ukraine and independent country which it recognised in Budapest Memorandum an agreement which has a name and we know signed it.
I also read the link you sent and its clear Russia feels it has the right to decide what other nations do and if they don't it will invade them it doesn't. Being threatened to sign a treaty or we invade was never going to work and no NATO didn't cause it Russia did they could just not have invade and then there would be no war.
They quote Arestovych claimed that even without NATO enlargement, Russia would eventually try to take Ukraine, just many years later, he conveniently disagrees with that bit.

You can't provide any sensible explanation why Russia cares about NATO its all based on the assumption that somehow NATO will attack Russia which is just not sensible

Ned Ludd29 Dec 2023 9:07 a.m. PST

"You can't provide any sensible explanation why Russia cares about NATO"

They dont want nato missiles on their border. Just like us didnt want missiles in cuba.

orange
link

All the information about western double standards, hypocrisy and shady deals are there for you to research yourself if you wanted to take the time. Look for yourself instead of just accepting this black hat white hat propaganda we are fed.

No one can answer the question. If the russian forces are so ramshackle and poorly led. How are they going to invade the eu? Why do we need to keep the war going with our taxpayers money?

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2023 9:20 a.m. PST

"You can't provide any sensible explanation why Russia cares about NATO its all based on the assumption that somehow NATO will attack Russia which is just not sensible"

H and R, my answer: Russias historical paranoia. There is no more paranoid "western" country around, then has been Russia/Soviet Union throughout history. They believe whatever they are going to do or planning on doing, everyone else is thinking to do to them as well.

Ned Ludd29 Dec 2023 9:33 a.m. PST

35thOVI How do you explain cuba missile crisis then?


BTW

No one can answer the question. If the russian forces are so ramshackle and poorly led. How are they going to invade the eu? Why do we need to keep the war going with our taxpayers money?

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2023 9:45 a.m. PST

"35thOVI How do you explain cuba missile crisis then?"

Simple… John F. Kennedy. 😉

Ned Ludd29 Dec 2023 9:47 a.m. PST

Ok. Vladimir Putin's turn now.

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2023 10:49 a.m. PST

I'm saying Kennedy stupidly painted himself into a corner with his previous ill-conceived moves. So you are saying Putin is equally as stupid? I agree with that.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2023 11:15 a.m. PST

Thats right. All the things you posted.
Well maybe if you lived in Bizzaro World.

You can't provide any sensible explanation why Russia cares about NATO its all based on the assumption that somehow NATO will attack Russia which is just not sensible
Exactly … NATO began to downsize as they didn't see Russia as big a threat as it was in during the Cold War. In fact, there was talk about getting rid of NATO. But once Russia went back to bad habits like when they were the USSR. As we see, well anyone with common sense can, that today's Russia is almost back to being "just like old times" …

Some here, you know who you are, think that US/NATO wants to expand East … as if the US is in charge of an evil imperialistic empire. Oh … wait … that is Russia…

Some here beliefs are skewed and biased by some thinking the US is going to take over the World … well at least all of Europe. That couldn't be more incorrect … bordering on tinfoilhat, conspiracy theory, etc. The US won't even control their own Southern Borders.

Riddle me this ?

Why after the fall of the USSR, did so many former WP join NATO ? Pretty sure they didn't like being under the communist Russian boot.

Why did Finland recently join NATO not too long after Putin invaded the Ukraine ? If history is studied, it is well known Russia and Finland well … they have a rather turbulent past. They share an 800–900-mile border. Maybe the Finns thought they may be next after Russia occupied the Ukraine again. The Finns knew like many of the former WP nations could Not trust Russia and Putin.

Putin in his archaic, corrupted, skewed brain may see the Finns joining as NATO expansion. NATO will let most in Europe join if they want after being vetted. The Finns joined NATO because of Putin invading the Ukraine. Just next door.

As long as some here see the US as an evil empire, etc. they won't get why they support Ukraine or welcomed Finland in joining NATO.

Ned Ludd29 Dec 2023 12:52 p.m. PST

No one can answer the question. If the russian forces are so ramshackle and poorly led. How are they going to invade the eu? Why do we need to keep the war going with our taxpayers money?
"I'm saying Kennedy stupidly painted himself into a corner with his previous ill-conceived moves"

He could have, and the west too no one wants to end the war.

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" NATO began to downsize as they didn't see Russia as big a threat as it was in during the Cold War. In fact, there was talk about getting rid of NATO. But once Russia went back to bad habits"

White hats and black hats again.

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