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"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic


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SBminisguy08 Dec 2023 11:11 a.m. PST

US has provided $75 USD USD Billion in aid to Ukraine through 09-30-2023 which is showing on several sources, including:

link

Is there a source for the quarter of a trillion ?

Funny how after almost TWO YEARS of war, we still don't know how much as been sent to Ukraine. The link you shared says $76 USD Billion, and here's a CNN link that says it's actually $113 USD Billion.

$113 billion: Where the US investment in Ukraine aid has gone

link

And then some direct military assistance isn't counted as $$$ in aid sent to Ukraine, which could be another $10 USD-$30 Billion. And then the Biden Admin wants to send another, what, $105 USD Billion??

So: 113+30+105 = $248 USD Billion

Here's a list of some of the direct equipment aid not counted in the $$$ figures:


Infantry arms and equipment

Air defense

10,000 Javelin anti-armor systems

1 Patriot air defense battery and munitions

80,000 other anti-armor systems and munitions

12 NASAM systems

2,000 Stinger anti-aircraft systems

Avenger air defense systems

7,000 TOW missiles

HAWK air defense systems and munitions

35,000 grenade launchers and small arms,

with ammunition

Laser-guided rocket systems

AIM-7 missiles

100,000 sets of body armor and helmets

RIM-7 missiles

Night-vision devices, surveillance systems,

thermal imagery systems, optics, and

laser rangefinders

AIM-9M missiles

Antiaircraft guns and ammunition

Equipment to integrate with and sustain

Ukraine's systems

C-4 and other explosives

Explosive-ordnance-disposal equipment

VAMPIRE anti-drone systems and munitions

Anti-drone gun trucks and ammunition

M18A1 Claymore mines

Anti-drone laser-guided rocket systems

Anti-tank mines

Other anti-drone equipment

Mine-clearing equipment

Obstacle-emplacement equipment

Medical supplies

Air-to-ground missiles

Field equipment, cold-weather gear, generators,

and spare parts

High-speed anti-radiation missiles (HARMs)

Precision aerial munitions

Chemical, biological, radiological, and

nuclear protective equipment

6,000 Zuni aircraft rockets (could function

as air defense)

18 armored bridging systems

20,000 Hydra-70 aircraft rockets

Rocket launchers and ammunition

25mm ammunition

Counter air defense capability

Manned aircraft

20 Mi-17 helicopters

Artillery

198 155mm Howitzers and ammunition

Explosive and combat drones

72 105mm Howitzers and ammunition

47 120mm mortar systems

Switchblade drones

10 82mm mortar systems

Phoenix Ghost drones

67 81mm mortar systems

ALTIUS-600 drones (can also be used for

surveillance)

58 60mm mortar systems

Munitions

203mm, 152mm, 130mm, 122mm

38 HIMAR systems

60,000 122mm Grad rockets

Surveillance drones

Precision-guided rockets

ScanEagle drones

Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb

launchers and ammunition

Puma drones

JUMP 20 drones

CyberLux K8 drones

Tanks and armored carriers

Penguin drones (can also be used as

combat drone)

186 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles

Black Hornet drones

4 Bradley Fire Support Team vehicles

31 Abrams tanks

45 T-72B tanks (via the Czech Republic)

Coastal defense

189 Stryker armored personnel carriers

2 Harpoon coastal defense systems

300 M113 armored personnel carriers

62 coastal and riverine patrol boats

250 M1117 armored security vehicles

Unmanned coastal defense vessels

300 armored medical-treatment vehicles

500 MRAP vehicles

Port and harbor security equipment

125mm, 120mm, and 105mm tank ammunition

Radar and communications

Ground support vehicles

4 satellite communications antennas

2,000 Humvees

2 radars for drones

731 tactical vehicles

21 air surveillance radars

100 light tactical vehicles

70 counter-artillery and counter-

mortar radars

68 trucks

124 trailers

20 multi-mission radars

10 command post vehicles

Tactical secure communications systems

Electronic jamming equipment

30 ammunition support vehicles

4 SATCOM antennas

6 armored utility trucks

SATCOM terminals and services

8 logistics support vehicles

239 fuel tankers and 105 fuel trailers

58 water trailers

Satellite services

Commercial satellite imagery services

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP08 Dec 2023 11:48 a.m. PST

Wow !!!! That is a hell of a laundry list !!! Could get most of it on GHQ !

Regardless … even with the Ukraine besting the Russians in almost engagements, etc. Putin is willing to keep sending bodies into the meatgrinder until the Ukraine decide to accept a brokered peace. As we have seen before the Russian numbers can be telling. I thought that the Ukraine's victories could balance it out. However, it ain't over until its over.

Ned – I read the link you posted. Short answer – let me say it again we don't have competent, capable leadership starting at the very, very top. I wonder are some of the top military's leaders and civilians in the Pentagon, etc. are capable ? But again, they answer to the POTUS, as long as the orders are legal, they have to follow those orders. As I have said before the A'stan debacle is a good example. That was not the plan that the military leaders wanted. It couldn't have been. And we see the end result …

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP08 Dec 2023 2:52 p.m. PST

"Pay the oligarchs or, we will kill your kids" Austin is a decorated combat veteran, a West Point grad, a retired 4 star. There is not a single direct quote from him here, only what Carlson said he says. There is no other way to say it – this is @#$&.

It's no wonder we are so divided when this kind of disrespect for a veteran is accepted.

Tango0108 Dec 2023 5:09 p.m. PST

President Biden Signals The U.S. Has Plans To Send U.S. Troops To Fight Russia When Putin Acts Against NATO

YouTube link


link

Armand

SBminisguy08 Dec 2023 5:57 p.m. PST

"Pay the oligarchs or, we will kill your kids" Austin is a decorated combat veteran, a West Point grad, a retired 4 star. There is not a single direct quote from him here, only what Carlson said he says. There is no other way to say it this is @#$&.

It's no wonder we are so divided when this kind of disrespect for a veteran is accepted.

Fine, you don't like Tucker's paraphrasing (which he does often), but the substance of what Austin said is true, and it's the same thing Biden said that is also execrable. They both have said that if Ukraine doesn't get funding, the US will end up having to send American troops to Ukraine.

And you can have served well -- and lost your way. Austin is thoroughly a creature of the Military Industrial Complex, sitting on the Board of Directors for multiple defense contractors, including Raytheon, before becoming SecDef. And there's this funny coincidence of companies he repped for getting big contracts once he became SecDef…

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP08 Dec 2023 6:04 p.m. PST

There is no other way to say it this is @#$&.
True …

President Biden Signals The U.S. Has Plans To Send U.S. Troops To Fight Russia When Putin Acts Against NATO
Well there is NATO Art. 5 …

Tango0108 Dec 2023 9:27 p.m. PST

Russian Foreign Ministry Issues A Warning That If Ukraine's Newly-Donated F-16s Are Based In NATO Territory, These Bases Will Be Attacked

link


Armand

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2023 6:20 a.m. PST

Exactly Legion and we would not be alone. Austin said that if we don't stop Putin now we might have to stop him later if he attacks a NATO country and Article 5 kicks in.

It's not a coincidence SB, how many major contractors are left since consolidation? Five? Four?

Per Jen Griffin from Fox News Austin "100%" did NOT characterize his remarks as reported by Carlson.

Ned Ludd09 Dec 2023 6:28 a.m. PST

How can putin attack a nato country or recreate the ussr as is his wish according to you all? His military is useless according to all you all. You cant have it both ways

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2023 8:30 a.m. PST

Well, he attacked Ukraine with a sub par military. He still has to be stopped. He has a significant disregard for human life, so attacking doesn't bother him much.

The greatest weakness of his army has been the inability to employ or apparently understand modern combined arms tactical concepts. Especially in the early days it was clear that the armored units were not sufficiently trained to avoid making some basic mistakes. This has resulted in large loss of men and equipment. However, this was offset by ordering advances without regard for losses. Indiscriminate mass artillery barrages also.

As long as Putin can keep coming up with more soldiers, he will keep trying to bludgeon his targets, even in the face of substantial losses.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2023 10:16 a.m. PST

Per Jen Griffin from Fox News Austin "100%" did NOT characterize his remarks as reported by Carlson.
Agreed … However, Austin, JCS, etc. hands are tied. Sadly, in this case. As in the A'stan debacle. The CinC and his admin are not up to the job, etc. E.g. the inability and will to strike military targets in Iran.

And that is the bottom line. We know Iran supports all the proxies that are firing at US troops.

Plus, if Iran was not coddled, etc. with the CinC et al playing softball. They probably may not have been able to support this barbaric Hamas attack on Israeli civilians. They could have done this with the last Admin … E.g. 60 TLAMs fired at Syrian targets. The threat of massive firepower and the will to use it, is how it is done in this situation.
Note: Iran can't escalate … they know they will only be targets, i.e. military, oil and nuke locations.


How can putin attack a nato country or recreate the ussr as is his wish according to you all?
He fears NATO but not the US leadership. Putin's Russia does border the Baltic States and Finland. To not to be prepared is no good military planning. And good soldier would know that. You prep for all possible options. Right now, Putin can't do anything in Ukraine. Save for try to hold the little territory he occupies. And fire missiles at civilians. Again, if he holds those areas, he will claim a "win".

His military is useless according to all you all.
Not just according to us air chair GENs[but I was only a CPT!] many other GENs/ADMs RETs, etc. knows what a Cluster Bleeped text this invasion and the Russian military is.

Anyone who studies history and understands military ops. Sees Putin's invasion was a "failure". High losses for little gains. Repeat … They have demonstrated very poor tactical and operational expertise, etc. They are not fighting the last war … but closer to the one before that. To believe anything otherwise goes against all military and historical knowledge.

You cant have it both ways
You seem to try … as well as the cat …

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2023 12:01 p.m. PST

Legion, we have been jointly deleted once again…

I will just repeat that the opportunity for a reckoning with Iran is getting to be overdue, IMO.

And, support for Ukraine against our greatest enemy over the last 75 years should be a no-brainer, if I may use that phrase.

Ned Ludd09 Dec 2023 12:04 p.m. PST

Tortorella did you get deleted on tmp? That happened to me about 3 weeks ago. Why does it happen?

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2023 12:52 p.m. PST

There are rules. Sometimes the kids forget. I always accept my fate as well deserved.

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2023 2:20 p.m. PST

Well, repeating it may not be a good idea!

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2023 10:40 a.m. PST

Legion, we have been jointly deleted once again…
I in the past have been not only SNIPPED/deleted, dawg haus'd many, many times. I was like the Cooler King in the Great Escape ! ⚾ Even thrown off the site twice, etc., etc. 🃏

I will just repeat that the opportunity for a reckoning with Iran is getting to be overdue, IMO.
Bingo !!!! 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

And, support for Ukraine against our greatest enemy over the last 75 years should be a no-brainer,
I agree … But many even some retired Vets think this is a waste of money, not our war, etc.

However, many retired senior officers, etc. interviewed believe to not support Ukraine would be a very bad move. As it would appear again, we don't support our allies, Putin could claim victory, China and Iran are watching, etc., etc.

And yes, I agree … Plus, as I have said before the US leaderships' priorities are very much wrong.

Ned Ludd10 Dec 2023 12:41 p.m. PST

So much for free speech.

Tango0110 Dec 2023 4:51 p.m. PST

U.S. Senate Intelligence Chair Mark Warner Says Putin Believes Ukraine Will Fall Within Just Months Without New US Aid

link


Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2023 5:23 p.m. PST

So much for free speech.
Unlike in the media etc. on a website as this one, the owner is the law.

Tango0111 Dec 2023 11:01 p.m. PST

Polish RAK 120 Self-Propelled Mortar Carriers Are Now in Service with Ukrainian Army


link

France Accelerates Production of CAESAR 155mm Howitzers to Replenish Its Army and Support Ukraine

link

France and Belgium Collaborate For Development Of New VBAE Armored Vehicle Project


picture


link


First combat deployment of Archer self-propelled howitzer in Ukraine


link

Czech-made Dana M2 152mm self-propelled howitzer spotted on Ukrainian battlefield

link


Australia to deliver Bushmaster APCs to Ukraine by Christmas Eve


link

Armand

Ned Ludd12 Dec 2023 5:45 a.m. PST

The cost was $1.55 USD USD million per unit. However soon after the deal was announced it there were accusations of corruption


DANA M1 CZ is a Czech upgrade of the DANA with a modified chassis, new fire control system, new navigation aids and a number of other improvements. It retains original 152 mm ordnance.

DANA M2 is a further improved version, developed in Czech Republic. It retains original 152 mm ordnance. In 2020 Ukraine ordered Czech DANA artillery systems modernized to the M2 standard. The cost was $1.55 USD million per unit. However soon after the deal was announced it there were accusations of corruption. It seems that no deliveries were made until the 2022 Russian invasion to Ukraine. In 2023 Czech Republic announced that 26-30 DANA M2 howitzers will be delivered to Ukraine.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2023 11:16 a.m. PST

Whoever sends equipment to the Ukraine is OK with me. Putin and Russia have to be defeated … They can't claim a win. Zelinsky is in DC today talking to the US Gov't for more equipment, etc.

As I have said so many times before. The money is available to support Ukraine. But the current leadership(?) at the top has the wrong priorities. 'nuff said …

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2023 12:11 p.m. PST

What more does Biden have to do to beg for Ukraine? This Congress is amateur, self absorbed, barely functional. They couldn't cut a deal on this, that would involve two sides, if their lives depended on it. Soon they will be on another long vacation. Then what? Let the punching bag POTUS figure it out? If he is so feckless as many here say, then the other side needs to explain what their plan is for Putin. Another Helsinki meeting would put another smile on Putin's face.

Immigration has been an endless fight for decades. Why put a critical moment in world history on the line over it now? Forget the elections and politics, just this once, and lead.

We have never had such an opportunity to take down Putin's conventional military capability. It is cheap by any measure of money, if not Ukrainian blood. Which should not be wasted. Whatever the criticism, in the end it comes down to not letting Putin win. There will be no security in Europe otherwise. There will be consequences all the way to the Pacific.

Ned Ludd12 Dec 2023 12:40 p.m. PST

Most Americans don't agree with you.
As for been cheap, I am sure families that have lost loved ones in a war that could have been ended over a year ago wont agree. To be happy to see other people die for your political desires is well……I would at the least get dog housed if I said what I think.


link

link

link

link

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2023 12:47 p.m. PST

This Congress is amateur, self absorbed, barely functional.
No argument here …

Immigration has been an endless fight for decades. Why put a critical moment in world history on the line over it now?
Come on … it was never this bad. Ask CBP, ICE, LEOs, etc. on the border etc. They all have said, the border was under control before this admin. They told the admin you don't have to do anything. Just leave things as they are and let us do our job. It was better than it had been for decades. With the current admin supporting the open borders, as one can see online that both the POTUS, VP and others in Congress, etc. saying so.

BUT there are about 9 million illegal aliens that have been allowed to cross the border and into the USA. Most of which, i.e. 90+% don't qualify for asylum or here because they can't get a job where they come from. Which does not qualify either.

Plus, almost 2 million Got-a-ways. Most of with are criminals, drug dealers, sex traffickers, terrorists, gang members, etc.

The criminals are committing crimes and breaking the law including rape & murder. And the Chinese supplied drugs to the cartels that are coming across the border are killing thousands of Americans.

The end result is the border has never ever been this bad. To say or think otherwise is ignoring the facts. There is no other way to look at this. Around 10 million illegal aliens roaming the US. Who is going to feed them, provide shelter, medical support, etc., etc. ? At this point this "tactic" employed by our top leaders is criminal. And in certain ways is breaking the law. Most that come here are not criminals, terrorists, etc. but they are using the other illegal aliens as cover, as diversions, etc.

Let the punching bag POTUS figure it out?
He is a "punching bag" for many because he and his admin are not doing the job. Just like a poor QB … if you can't score points, you are not doing what they are paying you for.

We have never had such an opportunity to take down Putin's conventional military capability.
Yes I agree … but again a GEN RET just being interviewed. Said what many have been saying, including me. The US did not give the Ukraine enough of the equipment they needed to defeat the Russians. Too late too little …

As again in the Mid East, the current leadership is very much risk adverse. Fearing to escalate both with the Russians and Iran/their proxies. Which as we see has been the wrong "method/concept". Get it … Putin had no thought starting WWIII/nuclear exchange. Ukraine will lose because the WH did not send enough CE equipment and MBTs. Again too late now.

With Iran and its proxies, the admin has done similar. By not using the proper tactics, plans, etc.

Because the current leadership and admin are weak, feckless, naive', don't have the right stuff, etc.

The enemy has seen this since this admin's A'stan debacle. They saw they could take advantage of this weakness, etc. As they did and will continue.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2023 1:32 p.m. PST

To be happy to see other people die for your political desires is well
So supporting a sovereign nation that has been invaded for no other reason than naked imperialism by a neighboring country is wrong ?

Political desires ? Whose ? NATO ? The USA ? Australia ? Who ?


So much for Lend Lease … What the UK and Russia should give the USA all those tanks, APCs, etc. back ? That helped them[and us] defeat the Nazis and Imperial Japan ?


FWIW …

Nazi Germany invaded France 1940 …

Russian invades Ukraine about two years ago …

How is there a difference … ?

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2023 3:58 p.m. PST

Legion, after all the fuss nearly a year ago, I never heard much again about the M1s finally making it over there with trained crews and how they did. Any thoughts?

I am very much in favor of a major commitment to the border. These numbers mostly resulted from the collapse of living conditions in failed countries like Venezuela. The previous admin made no effort to understand or address underlying conditions in these countries that sparked a massive increase in refugees. Not a clue about the tidal wave that was coming

But the real problems began with the new VP who was to handle this then failed to deal with any of it also. Inexplicable, given the extent of the chaos. leaving the border a mob scene with shortages of US manpower and everything else needed to get control and create some sort of order in the face of what amount to a major migration. The problem was then ignored by this admin for most of the last three years. Only very recently does it sound like they might be waking up for the election year.

But that still does not make it a logical part of an appropriation to supply Ukraine. Just make it a separate bill or tie it to something else.

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2023 4:04 p.m. PST

Ned Ludd this is about the scourge of international aggression, which is a war crime now. It's not about something so dumb as my political desires. I never said anything about what Americans want. I told you about what I believe is the right thing to do. I told you that I did not want to see Ukrainian sacrifice wasted. And that Putin needs to be stopped.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2023 6:35 p.m. PST

Legion, after all the fuss nearly a year ago, I never heard much again about the M1s finally making it over there with trained crews and how they did.
Oh yes all 31 M1s made it, the crews were trained up. And IIRC they are in combat. They should have sent many more as the USMC turned in the 200 M1s they had. Plus, there many are others in "mothballs".

As I have said thy could have sent the M1s aboard ship. Like we did many of our AFVs going to Europe. They would have been there in about two weeks or so. Including rail movement. The crews both tank and Maint should have already been trained on MBTs already. So, the transition to M1s would be quicker.

More M1s would have made a difference. As well as sending the CE equipment they needed with the dense Russian minefields. The F-16s should have been there a year ago … Again, too little too late.

I am very much in favor of a major commitment to the border.
Agreed … The only effective way to fix this is shutdown the border completely. Send the US Army to help. Not to do paperwork. Let the CBP, ICE, etc. do their jobs. All the illegal aliens still in CBP control should be put on C-17s and sent back to where they came from. Or very close … CBP, ICE, etc. said they have to know if they come here, they will not be allowed entree or load up on C-17s.

ICE, LEOs, etc. should be rounding up all they can that are already roaming in the USA. Priority should be military age males especially from the PRC/CCP, any moslem nations who have a history of supporting terrorism, many from Mexico, Central & South America. But if they are here illegally no matter where they came from, they have to go.

It not racist, xenophobic, etc. it is protecting our people from the criminals of all types that come here hiding among the other illegals. Or just trying to sneak across the border.

The US must make it clear. If they are in camo clothes, get across into the US. Snipers will shoot them as they are invading our territory. We have to make it known you are not allowed here. You are breaking US laws.

Someone who cuts a hole thru the border wall. They should also be shot. As they are aiding and abetting illegal aliens. They are destroying US fences/US property.

Don't get me started on the VP … she is … well never mind …

But that still does not make it a logical part of an appropriation to supply Ukraine. Just make it a separate bill or tie it to something else.
Many in Congress are tried trying to get control of our open border. They are going to push the current admin as far as they can. To fix this massive problem. And save American live. We have done it before. But our leadership is beholden to many with a lot of $ who want open borders.'nuff said …

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2023 7:17 p.m. PST

I agree in a much stronger approach, but not sure if you can shoot people. I don't want to talk VP either, a mess. Neither side wants what we would like,IMO. Need the issue for politics, media. It's never really been fixed. Some years have more refugees than others.

Ned Ludd13 Dec 2023 12:36 a.m. PST

Can you remember all that time ago (18 months) when ol jo said we will not send us troops to ukrain and start ww3?

Well now at Christmas he is says give me more money for war or we will kill your families.

link


Isn't democracy a wonderful thing…….When you can rig it.

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP13 Dec 2023 8:11 a.m. PST

Ned Ludd. I am no fan of the POTUS or his opponent, but saying things like this is @#$&*&$#.
The problem being is that some people read this and believe it. Or would like to believe it and start their own rant. Or do something crazy.

As for your comment on democracy, it's always a challenge. Your insinuation has no basis and just makes people give up. It also doesn't belong here.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP13 Dec 2023 9:39 a.m. PST

Tort +1

he is says give me more money for war or we will kill your families.

Whose Families ? Ukrainian ? Russian ? Russia[and Hamas] target non-combatants, as SOP …

And someone needs to study more about what the US founding fathers intended for democracy, etc. Or one can ignore all that because they were white slave owners …

SBminisguy13 Dec 2023 10:51 a.m. PST

@Tort

The previous admin made no effort to understand or address underlying conditions in these countries that sparked a massive increase in refugees.

Not our frukcin' problem! We know why these countries are collapsed sh1tholes, they adopted Socialism and rapidly devolved into authoritarian dungheaps that people fled from. And when the previous Admin DID try to apply pressure to Venezuela specifically to push them to reform or contain them, the Democrats blocked him and called him a racist!

No, all we need to understand is that it's not safe or sane to have a totally open border and allow 10-12 million people in of unknown origin, motive and health conditions into the US to stress our collapsing social welfare systems, our infrastructure, job market and general society. Immigration is only beneficial if controlled and lawful.

@Legion4

So supporting a sovereign nation that has been invaded for no other reason than naked imperialism by a neighboring country is wrong ?

No, but our current Admin has done it wrong. They never expressed a rational plan or goal. They never put oversight into place to minimize corruption and theft of aid $$$ and resources. And they never tried to convince the average American why this was so important -- no debate, no discussion, just pompous jingoism and chest beating, and if you asked, "say, what's the plan here," you'd be shouted down and accused of being a "Putin Puppet" and "against Democracy."

They didn't lead or convince, they dictated and tried to dominate. And eventually it was going to bite us all in the a$$.

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP13 Dec 2023 12:53 p.m. PST

This border problem has worried the vast majority of our citizens for some time. It has been ignored by the admin. As far as any meaningful action. A major mistake and could have been avoided.

I still think Ukraine is money well spent re weakening Putin. And if he wins, it will be an historic defeat for the West and a game changer. As with Israel, not really our place to plan for them, but the critical factor for me if that we did not send enough material fast enough. Part of this has been the political climate. Now Putin can see light at the end of the tunnel with the US tying its own hands. We are going to be the big losers here if we don't wake up, IMO.

SBminisguy13 Dec 2023 4:52 p.m. PST

We are going to be the big losers here if we don't wake up, IMO.

Too late. The horrifically bad "leadership" from the current US admin that demanded unquestioning compliance with their sh1tty failed policy was a doomed from the start. You can't do that in a functional democracy for too long, eventually people are going to push back -- and that's what's happened as the masters of the universe in charge of war policy have mis-stepped and screwed up time and again, assuring us total victory was just in sight -- just another 10$ or $20 USD Billion, any day now…any day now…

All avoidable, and predictable.

Tango0113 Dec 2023 5:01 p.m. PST

The White House Has A Plan To Send Arms To Ukraine Despite Aid Stalemate With Congress

link

Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP13 Dec 2023 5:40 p.m. PST

Well according to US intel … the Russian Forces have taken very high losses. At the hands of the Ukrainians. And it will almost set Russia back by 2 decades for modernization, etc. We have to let the Ukraine finish the job.
kyivpost.com/post/25434

No, but our current Admin has done it wrong. They never expressed a rational plan or goal. They never put oversight into place to minimize corruption and theft of aid $$$ and resources. And they never tried to convince the average American why this was so important -- no debate, no discussion, just pompous jingoism and chest beating

Yes IMO and many others our current Admin has done many, many things wrong.

Too late. The horrifically bad "leadership" from the current US admin that demanded unquestioning compliance with their sh1tty failed policy was a doomed from the start.
Bingo ! Saying horrifically bad "leadership" is being generous. Their list of failures keeps getting longer …


The White House Has A Plan To Send Arms To Ukraine Despite Aid Stalemate With Congress
I'm very glad the Ukraine will get more arms from the US. But at the same time … The Open Border keeps getting worse. With this admin doing nothing to stop it.

IMO this is one of the biggest problems/self-inflicted wound that the US Gov't has put on the US citizens. This did not happen by accident. That and the terrible economy in a quest to Go Green and destroy the use of fossil fuels.

Tango0113 Dec 2023 10:58 p.m. PST

Armor: M88A2 Armored Recovery Vehicle


link


Novel German Anti-Tank Mines for Ukraine


link

Obesity epidemic threatens not just public health, but also national security

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Armand

Ned Ludd14 Dec 2023 12:03 a.m. PST

"The White House Has A Plan To Send Arms To Ukraine Despite Aid Stalemate With Congress"

This is my very point about democracy, you illustrated here for me, thanks.

The us administration would like a forever war that is their only plan , eventually they will incrementally increase the tension until there is open war (WW3) between the west and russia.

Further on democracy. I will be very surprised if the us actually has an election this year. The western world is entering a very dark period im not sure we will all come out the other side of it.

Listen to this if you dare

YouTube link

dapeters14 Dec 2023 12:29 p.m. PST
Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2023 1:14 p.m. PST

This is my very point about democracy, you illustrated here for me, thanks.

The us administration would like a forever war that is their only plan , eventually they will incrementally increase the tension until there is open war (WW3) between the west and russia.

Wow ! Talk about conspiracy theory ! tinfoilhat

That is beyond anything I have heard, thought or even considered. The USA's leadership does not want a forever war, nor to start WWIII. Seeing comments like this makes anything said/posted very questionable. To say the least. I can't find any other words for it. koolaid

I will be very surprised if the us actually has an election this year. The western world is entering a very dark period im not sure we will all come out the other side of it.
Where do you get such statements ? tinfoilhat Scripts from the SyFy Channel that were so poorly thought out, etc. they wouldn't even make the movie ?

For someone to say or post this sort of unbelievable, ill-conceived sort of things. Shows a complete lack of understanding of how the USA[and maybe the world] actually functions.

Ned Ludd14 Dec 2023 1:43 p.m. PST

The United States is stepping up the face-to-face military advice it provides to Ukraine, dispatching a three-star general to Kyiv to spend considerable time on the ground

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Wouldnt you say that the us government sending a serving us general to Kiev to direct the forces is a provocation?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2023 5:48 p.m. PST

Wouldnt you say that the us government sending a serving us general to Kiev to direct the forces is a provocation?
NO … as US advice has been going on even before the war started. The US had been sending advisors, trainers, etc. to Ukraine since 2015. After Putin occupied the Crimea in 2014. Was that provocation ? The Russians did not attack the USA for doing that. So … what is your point …?

FWIW – e.g. Russia sent thousands of "Advisors" to North Korea and Vietnam during both of those wars. Was that provocation ? Besides again, the Russians have lost huge numbers vs. Ukraine. They are in no condition to do any kinetic actions vs. the US/NATO.

I believe your evaluation of this situation is skewed by your distain to the USA. You don't like the USA's current top leadership ? Take a number and stand in line. But we know we can't let Putin occupy any Ukrainian territory. By supporting the Ukraine to continue to attrite the Russians in both troops & equipment is a positive move for the region and the USA.

Escapee Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2023 8:33 p.m. PST

Of course not Ludd, the Russians and the Chinese are both far more intrusive. As in Libya and many others areas they want to influence.

SB we clash again. I think your are not being objective enough here. The policy may or may not be flawed, but Ukraine would have been long gone by now without help from NATO. I know you think your favorite guy would do better, but this is definitely not his thing either.

In any case, we have helped Ukraine cause considerable loss to the Russian military, reducing the threat to Europe. But we should have gotten more aid there sooner. Ukraine will spend the winter rebuilding with what it has and will be less offensive-capable in the spring. I don't know what the plan is, but that does not mean there isn't one. It just does not appear to make much sense from the outside. For now at least Putin still has not won.

Tango0114 Dec 2023 10:46 p.m. PST

NATO increases military budget by 12% to 2.03 billion euros

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No, The U.S. Did Not Sabotage Russia-Ukraine Peace

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Armand

Ned Ludd15 Dec 2023 12:30 a.m. PST

link


Well linsey graham's wish is closer than ever.

Who will replace this draft?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP15 Dec 2023 9:46 a.m. PST

No … his opinion in many cases is considered by many as "not realistic", etc. …

The Pentagon has reported for years that 70% of the US military age males would not pass even the basic tests, etc. So, who are they going to draft? Plus, in the current situation the Draft would never get out of Congress. As this is not the "Greatest Gen." like in WWII. And we saw what a bad idea the Draft was during the Vietnam War.

That being said, many/most Drafted did their duty and in many cases very well. But the current generation of US youth, most are not the caliber of those that were drafted or volunteered during Vietnam.

E.g. link

SBminisguy15 Dec 2023 9:55 a.m. PST

SB we clash again. I think your are not being objective enough here. The policy may or may not be flawed, but Ukraine would have been long gone by now without help from NATO.

Defeating Russia and causing Putin's fall was never realistic. Winning in Ukraine was always stopping Russia from conquering it. Period. So it is stupid, dangerous and cruel to prolong the war as the Biden Admin has, stopping two peace efforts we know of to continue a war that will not result in a military victory for Ukraine.

Some settled peace was always going to be the case -- unless we've pushed things too far, and made a settled peace deal impossible with our actions, and pushed Ukraine to the point of collapse. Their latest offensive has been bloody and yielded few results. Did the US push them into a premature offensive to show the folks back home Ukraine can win? And why would they do that -- except the same masters of the universe running in the Ukraine war also overplayed their hand in the US as well.

In contrast we see the Biden admin pressuring Israel to suspend its anti-Hamas campaign after just a few months. Why?

Ned Ludd15 Dec 2023 1:10 p.m. PST

When/if the f15s are sent, there are no airfields suitable left for them to use. So if these f15s attack russia from other countries, poland romania etc that will make those nations a participant in the war. Now if the shoe was on the other foot what would the us do?

Regarding the draft, these are men too old for active military service and clearly not as enthusiastic as linsey graham. The comparison with us youth that was made is silly. They could be made fit enough, these poor souls on the otherhand are doomed. on the other hand.

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