"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic

G20 Summit Statement Avoids Condemning Russia For Ukraine War

link

Armand

Of course weak leadership still does not want to upset Putin.

As the failed Ukrainian Offensive slogs on and the Collective West runs short of Ukrainian women and children to sacrifice… the usual "cut and run" tactics commonly employed under such circumstances should start to appear. The Billions in "blood money" should dry up as elections draw near and the autumn rains turn the conflict into the La Brea Tarpits. All in all accomplishing nothing but enriching the Military Industrial Complex.

You are blaming the West for trying to support a sovereign country that was invade by an imperialistic neighbor ?

I'm pretty sure Putin & Russia are to blame.

A sovereign nation i.e. Ukraine does not want to be occupied by a ruthless enemy they have encountered before. Did you miss that ? Or did I ?

Do you wonder why many of the former WP nations after being under Russia's boot? Thery joined NATO as soon as they could ?

Finland just joined NATO, they have about an 800 mile border with Russia. What made them join ?

The Russians have a very bad record as occupier …

You are blaming the West for the women & children of Ukraine dying by Russian guns ?

I don't think we are watching the same movie or reading the same books.

I would not consider the Ukrainian offensive as failed… given the difference in numbers, military material and against one of the "first" world military Powers… they continue to gain ground and bleed the noses of their enemies… what I would without a doubt consider was the cunning Russian offensive … as a "complete and shameful failure" that will go down in history as not only very shameful but also the worst blow to Russian pride in Centuries…

And my friend Legion 4… don't forget Sweden too…

Armand

JSchutt I assume miraculosliey you assume that no Russian's, who of course in your opinion are blameless have died in this war. Get rea,l go look at your god Putins losses, far more men and merteriel, far more weeping for the women for Putins, slaugter of the ere menfolk. It it not time they will on there oppressor and intalled a person not a raving, demented child stealing pervert.

This is the type of fiction they are telling you.

link

Meanwhile

link

The leader of the free world is tired and want to go to bed.

link

God save America.

I live in a very strange neighborhood. I have a friend down the street who's daughter is dating a nazi. He was very concerned. I told him hey "…that's ok because it will keep other less desirable punks from bothering her." I have an another neighbor who thinks article 5 in our home owner's association requires all of us to all get together and burn his neighbor's house down if his neighbor's dog poops in his yard. I had to tell him "no… read it…that's not what is says. It only says that …any or all of us could get together and burn his house down without feeling terribly sorry about it… after consulting our wives. Something he could already do himself if he wanted to… with or without other homeowner consent. Unfortunately I have an old boomer neighbor a block or two from me who is quite the racist. After intimidating a young tenant of his for several years he was surprised to eventually get punched in the face by the young lad's father. He asked me if I would help him get revenge. Dude, said I… "…though it took quite while, you successfully managed to provoke his father into taking action… and besides he's much bigger than I am. Best make peace with him before he cripples you for life." I foolishly lent him a very old pistol registered in my name and some ammo that might still work… and told him not to use it… so I don't get killed too." To top it all off last Spring the community maintenance man decided to sanction who he claims… are "…dirty foreigners living on Diversity Street who shouldn't be allowed to use the Community Pool." I asked him what he was going to do about it. "I'm going to pee in the pool," he said, "till they all go away." Nevertheless it's been a miserable Summer and likely to be the same next Summer… because they don't seem to care and he's too stupid to realize what he has done. I'd move to another neighborhood… but all the other neighborhoods are just as crazy as mine…

+1 me

don't forget Sweden too…

Yes them too ! They know they are too close to Russia as well …

UshCha +1

Ned +2

The leader of the free world is tired and want to go to bed.

God save America.

Yes I agree … but again, if I say what I really think I'd be DH'd ….

JSchutt …

1) My suggestion – Move … now …

2) Interesting story, very imaginative, very entertaining, we all know it's pure fiction. A lot of that going around these days that passes for fact or the truth.

3) Everything is considered racist today by some. E.g. roads, bridges, math tests, pilot selection, Traveller [R.E. Lee's horse] etc. So, if everything is racist … than nothing is racist …

4) "you" -1, at least … 😎 That is my opinion of course. We are still allowed to have an opinion AFAIK ? Or did that change too ?

Greece Is Making a Killing Selling Ships to Russia

link

Nato to launch biggest military exercise since cold war

link

Armand

"Everything is considered racist today by some. E.g. roads, bridges, math tests, pilot selection, Traveller [R.E. Lee's horse] etc. So, if everything is racist … than nothing is racist"

Apparently the English country side is racist too now.

I don't know about you but im going to bed.

The Real Reason Why North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un Is Going To Russia

link

Navies Of Ukraine, The US, And Romania To Hold Joint Military Exercises In The Black Sea And The Danube Delta

kyivpost.com/post/21462

Armand

Apparently the English country side is racist too now.

It spreads like the Chinese COVID plague. It appears it's everywhere … 🌎🌕🪐🌌

FWIW … I'm going to the Y pool … 🏊‍♂️

Czech Republic Will Not Deport Ukrainian Deserters To Kiev

link

New Images Emerge Of The B-21

link

link

Armand

The US Military's Grave New Frontier: Training for Conflict—Theoretically—With Another Superpower

link

Armand

As I have said before, the US Gov't wastes too much $ on pet/lobbyist, etc. projects, etc. And is really not taking care of the military nor their families. The woke, DEI, transgen, etc. topics wastes time from real training, etc.

I remember the US Military was told by US leadership that their #1 priority was climate change.

'nuff said …

Germany Supplies Ukraine with 20 Additional Marder 1A3 Infantry Fighting Vehicles IFVs

link

First 10 M113 APCs refurbished by John Cockerill Defense on BENELUX budget ready for Ukraine battlefield

link

Belgian Defense starts participation in F-16 coalition to support Ukraine

link

Denmark announces largest financial aid package to Ukraine

link

Ukraine Army receives first 10 Danish Leopard 1A5 MBTs

link

First confirmed appearance of Slovakian Bozena 4 remote-controlled mine clearing vehicle in Ukraine

link

Pentagon arms Ukraine with ‘industrial-size' 3D printers

link

Armand

Top NATO General Says In The Event Of An Attack, NATO Could Use Up To 3.5 Million Soldiers

link

Armand

Article 5 does not compel any member state to doing anything. Each member state is allowed to get "involved" or not at the disposition of their own constituent legislatures. By the time such legislative decisions to participate was granted hell would have frozen over. Article 5 is a meaningless, toothless gimmick to reassure anyone who hasn't read it they are safe from something. Saying 3.5 million "could" be engaged is like me saying I "could" balance the Eiffel Tower on the top of my head.

Finally, mine clearing devices gets there to add to the few they have. They still need more of course.

Yes, we have discussed this before about NATO Art.5. But the members know this is an alliance of many nations. To jointly operate together in defense of Western Europe, etc. It is about "carrying their own weight", etc. E.g. IIRC Luxemburg sent an LTC or COL to the NATO forces HQ operating in the former Yugoslavia. When the 💩 hit the fan there. IIRC I think they only have 2 Infantry Cos. in their army. And one is a Res. unit. May have changed by now though ?

However, the NATO GEN said "Could" use up to 3.5 million NATO soldiers. That is an estimated number. The Military has OPLANS for many contingencies, etc. I know after serving 10+ years as a US Army Infantry Officer. E.g. in an FOB we even plan where to put the latrines, etc.

And I'm pretty sure you Can't balance the Eiffel Tower on your head. That is not a good comparison to a GEN giving an estimate based on an OPLAN, etc.

Hey, since Hillary Clinton has announced the restart of the Clinton Global Initiative to collect "humanitarian aid" $$$ for Ukraine, I expect the war to go on as long as powerful people can cash in on it!! Who wants Peace when they can get a Piece of the Action??

"Who wants Peace when they can just surrender to Adolf Putin"

There changed it for you,

Tally Ho!

SBmini +1

It saddens me as soon as I hear that name, I think of Benghazi …

"Who wants Peace when they can just surrender to Adolf Putin"

There changed it for you,

Tally Ho!

Surrender to Putin? Please, like Russia has any capacity to threaten NATO or do global power projection. But if cutting a peace deal is "surrender" then what does victory look like?

Tell me nickinsomerset, what does victory look like, how will you get there and what price are YOU willing to pay to achieve that?

Korea: Supplying the Ukraine War Effort

link

South Korean Breaching Vehicles Will Help Ukraine Replace Its Counteroffensive Losses

link

Abrams tanks to enter Ukraine soon, Austin says at Ramstein meeting

link

Armand

Victory is Russia out of the Ukraine, easy. It cannot be much clearer.

Cutting a peace deal with Putin, really, tell that to the Ukrainians.

ME? Been there, seen it done it, and who says that I am no longer contributing?

Tally Ho!

Legion, you made me look up some of the Army's various mission statements. The ability to fight and function under changing climate conditions is indeed a goal, but not number one. Both this and addressing sexual harassment appear at the very end of the 19 page report to the Armed Services Committee. I don't disagree with you about some of the training, but it does not seem as prominent as some are saying.

Here is a quick summary. China is the number one priority.

PDF link

SB, bad as Benghazi and Afghanistan were, we cannot forget the events that were a starting point for the modern terrorist organization wars.

In April 1983 more than 60 people died in the attack on the embassy in Lebanon, including 17 Americans. This was followed by the attack on Marines in October killing over 300 American and French military, including 220 Marines and 18 American sailors. 40th anniversary remembrances are starting soon.

Every time I hear comments about predators sensing weakness, poor leadership, bad policy, I think of those losses and the mistakes that were made in the early days of that administration. To Reagan's great credit, he took the blame. If I comment on the last couple of Presidents and the character needed to handle the truth, I will be DH'd.

France And Germany Remain Committed To Develop And Build A New Tank

link

Israel Says It Has Developed A 5th Generation Tank

link

Russia's European Neighbours Have Banned Passenger Cars With Russian License Plates

link

Armand

To Reagan's great credit, he took the blame.

And he changed policy -- no more would US military personnel be subject to ROEs that left them at risk (even if future presidents may have switched back), and he determined that US forces would only go in harm's way when the need was clear, and to win.

Legion, you made me look up some of the Army's various mission statements. The ability to fight and function under changing climate conditions is indeed a goal, but not number one.

I saw reports showing the current POTUS speaking to military units on bases, saying their #1 priority is climate change. Hard to forget that … Was the POTUS confused, misspoke, etc. ?

Note: we did train to fight & function in various climates and terrain. E.g. Panamanian Jungles, the rice paddies both winter & summer of the ROK, the Mojave, [West] Germany, etc.

Again, we were expected to operate in any climates & terrain … No matter how some believe that the climate is/may be changing. We'd operate regardless … Even in an area that had been exposed to WMDs.

And yes the PRC/CCP is the biggest threat to the US. But they have been ID'd in speeches from the POTUS, Sec State, etc. with being "competitors" not the enemy. That kind of thinking is not "realistic".

no more would US military personnel be subject to ROEs that left them at risk (even if future presidents may have switched back)

ROEs change as did the POTUS. E.g. the USMC barracks bombing in Beirut, '83, the unnecessarily tight ROE under Obama almost every time the US military was deployed, i.e. Benghazi, the ROEs in the A'stan withdrawal/debacle, etc.

E.g. the USMC sniper teams ID'd the bomber at Abbey Gate/the airport next to Kabul. But not even their Bn Cdr could give them the go to take that ISIS-K bomber's head off.

Nick +1

Looks like Western politicians will support the War in Ukraine as long as the cash keeps flowing in a never ending money laundering scheme. Just read today that the US will start funneling up to $25 USD Billion in aid to Ukraine through the World Bank – and the World Bank has designated Black Rock, JP Morgan and others plus…wait for it… the *Clinton Global Initiative* to manage aid programs with this money on its behalf. Pretty sweet, eh? Hell, they don't even bother to hide it anymore!

As you know , in Beirut there were serious ROE issues. No crew-served weapons could be kept loaded. No Marine could chamber a round without permission from a commissioned officer. After the first attack, this seems especially hard to comprehend.

Unfortunately, selling arms to Iran in 1986 to get hostages released shows Reagan dropping the ball, still not getting it, putting everybody at risk. Iran/ Contra made it worse. "I don't recall" was no less concerning than it is today.

There were no Marines at Benghazi, not even a consular guard detachment. Our people were left in an isolated position with no help available. The nearest troops were hours away in Europe. Again, hard to comprehend.

SB where's the evidence? I am not saying you are wrong. They will all charge admin overhead. How do we know they will be stealing funds? In the last admin, an official ended up with 2 billion from a foreign power he gained close access to as a government employee. Is this a sweetheart deal too? No evidence either.

Legion, I don't know whether POTUS was confused, certainly possible…. I just looked at some army docs. Is there not some risk that extended or ongoing exposure to extreme climate conditions may hurt combat performance, even with training? Equipment failures? Just asking.

There were no Marines at Benghazi, not even a consular guard detachment. Our people were left in an isolated position with no help available. The nearest troops were hours away in Europe. Again, hard to comprehend.

The Ambassador kept asking the Sec/State for more protection on the ground at Benghazi. Was repeatedly denied. US Forces in the region were prepared to go in to save the Ambassador and his retinue. US Paratroops from Italy, US Army Infantry from locations in Africa and USMC off the coast, etc. Then the Sec/State lied about why our people on the ground were killed.

Is there not some risk that extended or ongoing exposure to extreme climate conditions may hurt combat performance, even with training? Equipment failures? Just asking.

We have operated in the jungles of Panama, the frozen terrain of the Korean winter[-30 below], 117 degrees in the Mojave, etc., etc. Unless climate change is worse than that … which is highly unlikely … we can operate. Regardless of what the Green zealots say.

Yes, our people were left unprotected at Benghazi. I think I read somewhere that it would have taken 15 hours to get troops there. No excuse.

We do not fight with the same fanaticism our terrorist opponents do. The rules of warfare, Geneva, collateral casualties,etc. are meaningless to them. We have to fight them like they fight us, I fear.

Even though there was a Congressional hearing about the Benghazi debacle. The guilty or incompetent, etc. still went to work the next day and on pay day got a check with tax-payer money.

We do not fight with the same fanaticism our terrorist opponents do. The rules of warfare, Geneva, collateral casualties,etc. are meaningless to them. We have to fight them like they fight us, I fear.

Yes that has been a standard in Vietnam, the Mid East, Somalia, A'stan, etc. My answer is use more firepower and be aware but worry less about CD. When dealing with fanatics, islamic terrorists, etc. we have to kill many as often as we can. Yeah, they may replace them … but we'll kill them too.

While I find this a tough choice, I have to agree. But it bothers me that there is no end to this kind of fighting against opponents who are happy to blow themselves up to kill us. They are not going to run out of these people. When does it end?

The trading of arms to Iran for hostages was secret and complex, as was the secret support for the rebel forces in Nicaragua. Iran got thousands of TOW missiles from the administration. Documentary evidence was withheld and/or went missing. Numerous participants were pardoned by the first Bush, on the advice of Bill Barr.

Benghazi could have been prevented, but so could Beirut – both the embassy and later the barracks – and very probably Kabul. Everybody walks.

There is no difference between our two political parties when it comes to screwing up. Apparently the only lesson we learned from Reagan was to switch from giving weapons to giving money for Iranian held hostages.

Ned Ludd+1

While I find this a tough choice, I have to agree. But it bothers me that there is no end to this kind of fighting against opponents who are happy to blow themselves up to kill us. They are not going to run out of these people. When does it end?

Until they move into the 20th Century let alone the 21st. We will deal with them with tech/ordinance. As I said, if we kill some and more come to replace those, we'll kill them too. Repeat as needed …

Benghazi could have been prevented, but so could Beirut – both the embassy and later the barracks – and very probably Kabul.

Yes, it was not the Military that caused those disasters. But the elected & appointed gov't officials. I agree the military operates with the politicians in charge. That was what the Founding Fathers envisioned, and it works very well. But in many cases the politicians don't always listen to their GENs/ADMs. And yes Beirut, Benghazi and Kabul could have been avoided.

But in many situations the politicians do what is good politically, for optics, etc. Ignoring sound military judgement, knowledge, experience, etc. Costing US lives as in these cases.

As far as Iran, the US should do everything they can to make things very bad for them. Maybe their people will rise up, albeit unlikely. Even though many Iranians don't like their leaders. For a number of reasons. Talking to them sounds like a god idea. But this has been tried before … with little to no results.

They still got a lot of $ released to them, they continue to support terrorism and working on getting deployable nukes … Plus, Americans need to stay out of Iran & Russia. Maybe make it illegal to go there ?

+1 Legion. Civilian leadership is a must in a democracy. But that means understanding the advice the military gives you on overseas threats.

I would love to see the newly repaired US, Israeli partnership take more overt action against Iran, especially at sea. We will need the Iranian people there to legitimize regime change. But I think we have had way more than enough of playing games with these guys.

I don't see what Ned Ludd said SB.

+1 Legion. Civilian leadership is a must in a democracy. But that means understanding the advice the military gives you on overseas threats.

Agreed, we are not a Military dictatorship.

The Israelis are our best allies in the that region. And besides islamic terrorists, Iran is our biggest threat there.

Doh! A "Self-Own" propaganda coup for Putin -- clueless Leftist Canadian PM, Leftist Speaker of Parliament and generally clueless MPs honor a Ukrainian WW2 Veteran "who fought the Russians for Ukrainian Independence"…as part of the First Ukrainian Division — also known as the 14th Waffen SS Grenadier Division -- also known as 14th SS-Volunteer Division "Galicia"…the division's leadership was found guilty of war crimes, including the ethnic cleansing of Polish-ethnic villages in Western Ukraine upon Himmler's orders to "liquidate the Poles" and especially Jewish Poles, and other atrocities committed in anti-partisan and security operations

Here are the clapping seals…they're all really excited and have no idea who they are clapping for.

YouTube link

This is quality of Western leadership we have during this period of crisis…lovely.

SB, we have heard some clueless right wing American history from our leaders as well. But right or left this should not happen.

But right or left this should not happen.

Agreed, all politicians are lured by the perceived value of propaganda. So this is the triumph of optics over substance. They heard "Ukrainian-Canadian WW2 veteran who fought the Russians -- say, we want to be jingoistic about Canada's brave fight against the Russians via Ukraine -- let's applaud!"

They didn't pause to ask -- say, wasn't Ukraine part of the USSR and didn't the Soviets fight the Nazis, including Soviet Ukrainians? Should we search "First Ukrainian Division WW2" and see what Wikipedia says? Nah, I'm sure it's all good. They didn't research or know his actual background and didn't bother to find out his actual background -- just like they often vote for legislation that seems popular or advantageous in their eyes without knowing what it really is.

+1 SB….

LOL! Here's the leading Liberal MP and "Head of Government" calling for a vote to erase all records of her having led the Parliament in applause for a WW2 Nazi Waffen SS soldier…

YouTube link

LOL again – now the Speaker of the House of Commons is resigning to deflect criticism of the Liberal Party's gaffe, Trudeau's folly and mitigate their embarrassment.

And they are right across the border … Wait we don't have a border … or is that just the Southern border ?

Military Technical Institute of Serbia unveils OT MRAP 6x6 M20 armored vehicle

link

Sweden confirms Stridsvagn 122 tanks deployment in Ukraine

link

British Army Displays New Ajax Armored Vehicle with 40mm Turret at DSEI 2023

link

Armand

Erdogan Says Turkey Will Support Sweden's NATO Bid If US Approves F-16s

YouTube link

link

Armand

Interesting what value the russians will see in keeping their Baltic naval flotilla after Sweden joins. To be honest, will a post-putin russia be tempted to sell off Koenigsberg/kaliningrad? It will certainly need the money. I can see it possibly being bought by the EU a 'free trade city'.