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31 May 2022 4:22 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "De Bellis Napoleoniennes ?" to "De Bellis Napoléoniennes?"

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hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP31 May 2022 1:06 a.m. PST

Hi there,

There does not exist or has never existed (for 25 mm miniatures) a Napoleonic rules with the DBA, DDBM or DBR system?

Thank you all.

JimDuncanUK31 May 2022 2:01 a.m. PST
colkitto31 May 2022 2:04 a.m. PST

And there are loads of variants out there.
Or maybe "Horse, Foot and Guns" if you mean "by Phil Barker".

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP31 May 2022 6:19 a.m. PST

Phil's been doing Napoleonic versions of the DB system for years. The earliest one was titled "Boots and Brandy" and I believe "Horse Foot and Guns" was the most recent. There could easily be one or two in between.

Grattan54 Supporting Member of TMP31 May 2022 9:00 a.m. PST

As Jim linked above. The DBN Napoleonic site has everything you need including scenarios.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP31 May 2022 9:17 a.m. PST

Thank you all,

I found "Horse, Foot and Guns Version 1.1 Paperback – March 6, 2016", there were no others after?

But it's wargames rules for large land Battles for the period 1701-1914 ???

Not specifically for the Napoleonic Wars???

Paskal

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP31 May 2022 10:41 a.m. PST

That's pretty much how the DB series works, Paskal. By my count, 13 of the troop types are pre- or post-Napoleonic. The other 22 are Napoleonic, though not all show up in Europe. Use the army lists for specific Napoleonic campaigns and you should be OK.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP01 Jun 2022 1:51 a.m. PST

"Horse Foot and Guns" (Hfg) is a set of quick-play army-level wargames rules for large land Battles for the period 1701-1914.

The version 1.1 is a slight revision of the version 1.0 written about ten years ago by Phil Barker and for many years available as a free download,but i don't like anything digital.

It is primarily intended for games between two players each controlling a complete army against its historical opponents using a minimum number of figures on a small table,a minimum number of figures? How many ? And can we use 25mm?

The series' inspirations are that no current rules can cope with more than one corps per player; that few of the many wars of the period except the Napoleonic and American Civil Wars are covered by existing rule sets; and that great interest is being shown in smaller model scales for which casualty removal is impractical.

If we don't remove the "losses", it doesn't matter.

Later it will be followed by Hfg Version 2.0 which will extend the period to 1925 as well as detailed companion sets, initially "Tricorne & Musket" covering 1701-1790, "Shako and Bayonet" for 1791-1850, and "Kepi & Rifle" for 1851-1914.

I need to see these other versions §

Hfg Version 2.0 is the latest?

Decebalus01 Jun 2022 2:19 a.m. PST

Paskal. I would try DBN, even if HFG is free. HFG as a rule system is an absolute mess, because it incorporates every weapon and troop combination of the whole period in one.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP01 Jun 2022 9:59 p.m. PST

What is the scale of representation of troops in DBN ?

Dexter Ward02 Jun 2022 12:32 a.m. PST

There is no newer version of HFG than 1.1.
It is available as a print on demand if you don't want PDFs

Dexter Ward02 Jun 2022 2:35 a.m. PST

If you are only going to use HFG for one era, it is worth making a QRS with only the troop types and info you need

Allan F Mountford02 Jun 2022 6:38 a.m. PST

I have 15 versions of HFG, the most recent being 16th September 2006. Army lists are less numerous, but the most current version can be viewed here:
web.tiscalinet.it/arsm/wrg/HFG/HFGLists.pdf

Allan F Mountford02 Jun 2022 6:39 a.m. PST

A 'draft' version of 'Shako & Bayonet' was put together years ago by David Brown. No official version was ever produced.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP02 Jun 2022 3:53 p.m. PST

Paskal, 1,000 to 1,500 cavalry, 1,500 to 2,500 formed infantry and 18 to 24 guns in HFG. I'd expect most of the DBNs to be similar, but I don't know.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP03 Jun 2022 5:31 a.m. PST

Thank you all

@ Robert Piepenbrink :

In HFG the figures are based I suppose, by 2, 3 or 4 ?

@ Allan F Mountford /

if I understood correctly there is 'Shako & Bayonet' – 'DBN' and 'HFG' for the Napoleonic era with a DBA/DBM/DBR system?

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP03 Jun 2022 1:16 p.m. PST

What Paskal says is not true. There is a Napoleonic war-game modeled on DBA for any scale figures. DBN
I have played DBA since its release and it is great. HFG is not DBA for the gun powder era. Much too complicated. De Bellis Napoleonics is perfect for this era, but getting more complicated and not up dated to DBA 3. I may be wrong. It is anyway a good set of rules

Allan F Mountford04 Jun 2022 2:18 a.m. PST

@Paskal
'Shako & Bayonet' is an unofficial version of HFG. This is what the introduction says about the proposed game:

Suggestions for Shako & Bayonet 1791-1850

Wanting to shoot people with muskets on a large scale I mused on the form that the future ‘Shako and Bayonet', as one of the companion rules set to HFG, might take.

Rather than idle speculation I decided to write up the following by way as a suggestion for the rulesgiver.

I have based this upon the scraps of information we have about S&B, ie virtually nothing but the idea that it will show units in formations and that battalions will be depicted by two elements.

In writing these up I have tried to translate HFG to the new scale and second guess how the particular problems of this translation might be solved. In parts this has involved creation of whole sections of rules, such as formations, but I have tried not to change just for the sake of change. Guidance was sought from DBR and DBMM when a new mechanism was needed. New or altered sections are in red. Mostly. I have moved about a few sections, necessitated by removal or increasing detail to suit the new scale.

Stripping out the 12 HFG troop types not appropriate for the S&B era did reduce complexity and word count, but not by much. I have taken the liberty of creating only a few extra troop types; that of ‘Revolutionaries' which are poor quality but enthusiastic foot emblematic of the era, ‘Elephants' and ‘Skirmishers Ahead'. Elephants are treated as broadly analogous to Cuirassiers but with some special strengths and weaknesses. Skirmishers Ahead are those assumed for Bayonets and Light Infantry in HFG but not depicted separately. They are linked to such types in S&B and must remain in close association with them. Artillery can be ‘Howitzers' or fluky ‘Rockets' in addition to their other grades. ‘Pioneers' are included as a train variant to build or destroy field structures.

The class of Dismountables has been removed as only Dragoons would be members of it. Those few mounted formations that dismounted in battles, rather than for the occasional special task, have this capacity noted in their army list and an appropriate foot type is nominated for them. Rules for mounting and dismounting are included.

Firelocks have been retained to cater for non-Europeans that may fit the type. Laager has also been included even if its prime users are not significant in the era. Strong Points have been altered to match the new game scales.

Formations of Line, Square and Assault Column are included for those infantry types using them, some other foot or mounted types may benefit from Assault Column.

Most but not all foot types must be depicted in ‘units' of two elements that never separate. Such a unit represents a battalion or similar formation of roughly 500-800 men and officers (so 250-400 per element). Some types, such as supporting artillery not in concentrated batteries must be single elements while the remaining types have a choice of being in units or as single elements depending on their historical organisation. Mounted having a choice to be depicted as singles or units recognises that there was great variation in nations' organisation of their cavalry squadrons into larger regiments or similar groups. If nothing else it allows a small number of cavalry to pose a threat to foot.

Ground scale is set by the troop scale at 40mm, one element width for 15mm troops, equalling 100 paces. This has had several consequences for translating HFG. Firstly the move rates of all troops has been scaled back; a) to keep playing table size manageable and troops making outcomes from exiting the table too easily and b) the more tactical feel of S&B does not always suit wide sweeping ‘semi-strategic' marching.

A consequence of changing these scales is that the time scale should probably be condensed slightly, although none is here suggested as move rates represent initiatives not theoretical marching speeds.

A more profound change triggered by altering the ground scale and reducing move distances is that the HFG requirement for some advancing troops to formally stop and compute shooting before close conflict is not needed. But these moves may cost more PIPS. Players must use their tactical skill to avoid or maximise shooting. The option to press forward after shooting may be too generous at the new scale, any feedback on this is most welcome.

Combat outcomes have likewise been altered to cater for the changed troop scale and the new formations. I have not altered troops' basic combat factors for consistency with HFG but have altered other charts. The combat charts themselves have been separated into close combat and distant ‘shooting' combat sections for ease of use.

Play should be on a table of at least 1200mm x 900 (4 feet x 3 feet), expect your troops to be hotly engaged early in a game. Terrain size and number of pieces has been altered to suit the ground scale.

Scale Issues Unresolved at this stage
Any need to separate out Lancers as a sub-type of LCav LHorse???

???perhaps but only against Foot in the open/in square/in rain???

It looks like horse and portable artillery are separate things but I think Zamburak "wasps" camel gunners whose name and what can be gleaned about their role suggests an emphasis on mobility could be both Portable and Horse. The effect would give them a reduced range compared with other horse artillery. The Persian Shah had 400 of them described by one European source as part of his guard, at least two provincial rulers had 200 man formations.

Larger battles may need the troop scale altered to 1 inch = 100p, I have not tested this and there may be unforeseen consequences.

???note that this is approaching ground scale in Age of Eagles and Napoleon's Battles???

Army size.
I surveyed 180 European Napoleonic armies in battles but not sieges to gauge their size characteristics. Where accounts of numbers differed I averaged them. The numbers are presented with some rounding up of the lower percentages.

0-10K men 7%, 11-15K men 13%, 16-20K men 12%, 21-25K men 10%
26-30K men 7%, 31-35k men 10%, 36-40K men 10%, 41-45K men 5%
46-50K men 5%, 51-55K men 3%, 56-60K men 3%, 61-65K men 2%
66-70K men 3%, 71-75K men 3%, 76-80K men 2%, 81-85K men 2%
86-90K men 2%, 110-120K men 3%, 121K+ men 6%

I suspect there is a bias against the smaller end at say fewer than 15K men as these tend to be reported (in generalist publications) only when they are particularly interesting or important for some reason.

Next I took pairs of combatants (but excluding those conflicts where a victor mops up an enemy that has recently lost as major conflict and often has a massive numerical disparity) and averaged the numbers of the two armies. The idea here is to take out variability for position, troop quality and similar.

Using this method armies tend to ‘group' at the following six numbers;

16K men, 23K men, a 35-43K clump, 55K, 75K, giant 120K battles.

At the S&B scale of one manoeuvre item of two elements per 1000ish men, the first four groups up to 55K should be manageable under the rules. The 75K group lends itself either to a large S&B game or HFG. Clearly HFG comes into its own for the titanic 120K men per side battles.

The above sizes might be a useful guide to the various AP totals for play.

David Brown

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP04 Jun 2022 6:56 a.m. PST

Bravo and thank you David
In conclusion, none of these rules have a DBA/DBM/DBR system?

@Bobnar:
I didn't say anything wrong, I was making a guess since I don't know any of these three rules!

Decebalus07 Jun 2022 5:02 a.m. PST

"Bravo and thank you David
In conclusion, none of these rules have a DBA/DBM/DBR system?"

Sorry, but you obviously have problems understanding the statements here.

DBN is a napoleonic version of DBA (by different authors).
HFG is a modern version (1700-1900) of a modified DBM system (by the same author).

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP08 Jun 2022 6:06 a.m. PST

Sorry, but I have no problems understanding the statements on this topic, but I thought that these rules had more complicated systems than DBA and DBM because of the change of times.?

If I haven't read it here, it's because I've been told.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP28 Mar 2023 7:04 a.m. PST

I bought "Horse, Foot and Guns", we'll see…

Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP29 Mar 2023 7:57 a.m. PST

DBN in its first edition was an extension that required the DBA rules to play, it is simpler than the current second edition.

With second edition, it became a stand alone game and did add more complexities, but ones that really capture the flavour of the period. It is a far better Napoleonics game now, and still pretty easy to pick up; definitely on the lighter end of Napoleonics rules. It does take several plays to get a good grasp of the nuances.

Because it is now a stand alone game, there is no need for any changes to bring it into any alignment with DBA 3.0.

Nominally, each stand = 1 brigade, but plays fine scaled up to division or down to battalion or lower to accommodate various scenarios.

The author has lots of great game play videos on Youtube. Not exactly how-to-play vids, but they give a very good feel for the play of the game:
YouTube link

ferg98103 Apr 2023 11:18 a.m. PST

I love DBN personally.

Used to do all the big, popular rulesets but DBN is the way forwards.

Small forces, quick games and a surprisingly complex set of rules once you get started

Kind Regards

J

GarryWills02 May 2023 4:05 a.m. PST

Just published a video on my DBN game at Salute50 last weekend, Castiglione 1796; youtu.be/OJsf_cE6DRM

blank frank11 May 2023 2:31 a.m. PST

You've done a good recreation here. I do like to see actual battles being translated to the wargames table. A good measure of a rule set and always some thing quite tricky to do, as there always seems to be some aspects be it terrain or troop type which needs tweaking.

Would be interesting to see the battle being fought with Bob Cordery's Portable Napoleonic rules. I say this because he uses Hex terrain (and grids) and again one of the four a sets of rules in his book are set at this level. Oh and they are so simple. I'll just have to buy your book.

hi EEE ya Supporting Member of TMP26 May 2024 6:08 a.m. PST

@All

I love "Horse, Foot and Guns"!

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