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"LtCol Du's dilemma. Battle of Rock Hill pt III" Topic

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Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP29 Apr 2022 12:46 p.m. PST

Final phase of the battle of Rock Hill 1966. This time we look at ARVN. Found here:



John Leahy Supporting Member of TMP30 Apr 2022 5:07 a.m. PST

That was very interesting! Using ARVN is a very different type of game. What rules did you use?



Blutarski30 Apr 2022 8:37 a.m. PST

Thanks, Joe.
Did a quick scan and am intrigued enough to come back for a closer look.

Some questions may follow.


Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP01 May 2022 6:40 a.m. PST

Thanks for the comments. John, use a combination of O group and battlefront. O group for orders and recon and battlefront for everything else. I reviewed both rulesets on the blog this year. Agree Arvn plays differently!
B, questions welcome. Always appreciate a discussion. I usually learn something.


Blutarski01 May 2022 9:54 a.m. PST

Joe Legan wrote -
"B, questions welcome. Always appreciate a discussion. I usually learn something."

Me too.

I am first going to re-visit your blogsite, so that I don't raise questions about items you have already addressed.

What I'm most interested by is your very cool integration of situational and C2 constraints upon command. It really animated the scenario for me.


Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2022 6:49 a.m. PST

B, Thanks. I want all my battles to read like a story. I love Eisenhower's quote " war is a drama, not a game of chess." I never commanded in battle but I commanded for 8 years. There are always constraints/ pressures on what you can do!


uglyfatbloke02 May 2022 9:05 a.m. PST

For some reason (or maybe none at all) Webroot blocks me from reading your Blog Joe; pity 'cos I'd be most interested. SWMBO has been pondering building an ARVN company now that Empress have a range…..she's a bit addicted to Empress miniatures.

Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP02 May 2022 2:29 p.m. PST

UFB, I wonder why you are blocked? That is too bad. Empress makes some great figures. I have used command decision and some old Peter Pig for my ARVN at15mm because at "true"15 they are a little smaller than my battlefront and Flashpoint for the US.


uglyfatbloke03 May 2022 1:52 a.m. PST

No idea why I'm afraid.

Just Jack Supporting Member of TMP03 May 2022 8:26 a.m. PST

Fantastic fight, Joe, very entertaining! I'm really enjoying these higher level fights you've been doing, so much so that (once again) you've set my wargaming wheels to motion.

I'm quite taken with this concept of the ‘maneuver roll,' so I now have a copy of the Battlefront WWII rules winging their way to me, and I've been working on re-basing my VC, NVA, Mountain Tribesmen, and WWII US Marines, which I intend on using as ARVN.

We'll see once I have the rules to hand, but based on what I've drawn from your review and other spaces on the internet, I believe I will use the card activation from IABSM (sans ‘Tea Break'), incorporate the ‘maneuver roll' from BFWW2, and stick with the fire, melee, and morale mechanics from 5Core. I'd like to play battalion-level fights, with one stand=a platoon, though I think the mechanisms would work all the way down as well (one stand=a squad or even a fireteam).

Very cool, please keep them coming!


Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP03 May 2022 1:11 p.m. PST

Jack, great to hear from you! The maneuver roll is a great idea. It would work well with IABSM cards as activation is where battlefront shows its age. Not familiar with 5 core mechanics but sure it will work though I like battlefronts.
Glad I could help you spend your money on another project!


Just Jack Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2022 7:00 a.m. PST


"The maneuver roll is a great idea. It would work well with IABSM cards as activation is where battlefront shows its age."
Right, I'm not a fan of IGOUGO, so I figured IABSM would solve that, but with the maneuver roll it would make it random enough that I don't need the Tea Break. Not sure if the maneuver roll takes into account leadership (haven't received the rules yet, should be here tomorrow), but that's another plan of mine, to have +1, 2, 3, and 4 leaders a la IABSM and TW&T.

"Not familiar with 5 core mechanics but sure it will work though I like battlefronts."
You are killing me! I have literally played and posted 259 games using 5Core, as well as numerous other games (such as IABSM) with 5Core combat/melee/morale mechanics bolted onto them, having explained them umpteen times, and you're not familiar??? Killing me Smalls! I'll take a look at Battlefront's, of course, but 5Core is hard to beat, in my estimation. You honestly should give them a gander, you may just become smitten, as I did. Once you strip away a little fluff they are smooooooth.

If you're interested you can find my write up here:

"Glad I could help you spend your money on another project!"
You've become quite good at that ;) I've got an order in with Brookhurst to pick up a few Peter Pig odds and ends I need, have to do some painting, but then will be ready. Actually, there's one other issue, in that I have a few M-113s, but they're not pretty; was looking to upgrade, but prices to get a dozen M-113s are exorbitant, and ACAVs are five times worse!!!

On a side note, I just finished painting up a giant, rather ridiculous, project that you should really enjoy, should I ever find the fortitude to actually give it a go…


Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2022 11:44 a.m. PST

A bit touchy today aren't we? : ) you have explained those mechanics several times n your blogs, I was being polite. They sound clunky not smoooooth. 2 separate dice? See what you think about battlefront. Before you chuck the combat I redid the charts with a D12. Will email them to you.
I do like the card activation idea but will use orders for a while to see what I think. Maneuver chart doesn't add for grade of leader but I do.
Quiet curious about your ridiculous project? Must be tied to the Corps somehow.


Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2022 3:57 p.m. PST

Jack, let me take a guess at your project? You are going to play a battalion at individual scale and name all officers and SNCOs?
Am I close?


Just Jack Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2022 4:48 p.m. PST


"A bit touchy today aren't we?"
Not at all, just playing around. But completely serious about the mechanics; yes, two types of dice, I use red for Kill and black for Shock, roll them at the same time, so it's quick, results are immediate and clearly defined, and it works in a simple mechanism to assign excess hits to nearby units. Anyway, to each his own, but I certainly love them.

"Maneuver chart doesn't add for grade of leader but I do."
That's the plan. The rules arrived today, will try and give them a read tonight. Also got the original AK-47 Republic.

"Quiet curious about your ridiculous project?"
You are not far off. Not Marines, Army 82nd Airborne, not a battalion but an entire Rifle Company at 1:1, singly based, and I named every single guy in the company. And to face them I had to do an entire company of Germans, singly based. Of course…. I plan on following them from (a quasi-fictional campaign in) Tunisia to Sicily, Salerno, Normandy, Holland, and the Bulge.

IABSM is actually specifically designed for this, and I've always wanted to give it a shot. Now that I've got everything ready I'm kind of chickening out, and wondering why I do such stupid things with my limited funds and leisure time…. Not to mention all the other projects I want to get to, ARVN now included.


Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2022 6:53 p.m. PST

I get the kill shock thing. Would make it easier to differentiate weapon types. I can see it working but I still think one die is easier.
A company individually named on each side is insane! That is why I thought you would tackle it. Bravo! Think you should do it.
Let me know what you think about battlefront. I have converted both charts to d12 and tweaked them a bit.


uglyfatbloke05 May 2022 2:45 a.m. PST

Is IABSM not a bit long-winded for a 1:1 company game?

Just Jack Supporting Member of TMP05 May 2022 8:07 a.m. PST


" I get the kill shock thing. Would make it easier to differentiate weapon types."
Not sure I follow, but here goes:
In games where one base=one squad/Wpns team/vehicle, the base is assigned a stat, typically: rifle squad rolls 1K 1S, MG team rolls 2K 3S, 81mm mortar team rolls 1K 3S, etc… Also, I modify the amount of dice up and down based on the quality of shot, so that a rifle squad firing on an enemy squad in the open at medium range might go up to 1K 2S, enemy at close range might get 2K 3S, enemy at medium range in cover is probably 0K 1S, etc…

In games with singly based troops it's much the same. A rifle gets 1K 1S, a BAR gets 1K 2S, a Bren gets 2K 2S, an M-42 gets 2K 4S, SMGs get 0K 1S at long range, 1K 1S at medium, and 2K 3S at short range.

In games with singly based troops that I maneuver as groups (usually squads), I assign weapons Shock dice only and then assign Kill dice off of that, typically at 3:1 for good shots, 4:1 for decent shots, and 5:1 for bad shots. So a squad firing at close range with two MP-40s (3S each), an MG-42 (4S), and seven Kar98s (1S each) would roll 5K 17S, read the results, and distribute them amongst the target figures from worst (KIA) to least (Pin).

It's quick and very flexible, allows me to meet any tactical situation. Hope that helps explain better.

"A company individually named on each side is insane!"
I'm only half insane: not both sides, just the Yanks.

" Let me know what you think about battlefront."
Will do, but tough, lots of baseball going on right now.

Uglyfatbloke- Indeed it is, but that's literally how it's designed to be played, at Company-level with individually-based troops. The wargaming megalomaniac in me just has to give it a try (though I don't use their firing system for producing Shock and casualties, I could never understand that firing table).


uglyfatbloke05 May 2022 12:04 p.m. PST

Jack…I watched a 'how its done' youtube thing and could n't get enthralled, but then we like games with a fast tempo, hence we're developing our own – not a game that many people would enjoy, but it works for us

Just Jack Supporting Member of TMP05 May 2022 4:42 p.m. PST


Yeah, it's certainly a different set of rules, and they certainly take me a long time to play (despite changing some mechanics in order to speed it up), but the activation system works well for me playing solo and I've had some really good games with it.

"… not a game that many people would enjoy, but it works for us."
Why's that? What are the key concepts/mechanics?


Bismarck17 May 2022 12:07 p.m. PST

Splendid designed scenario, great looking table and great
AAR. Sounds like your system is working out well. Sorry to
be late to the party. Great job!

Joe Legan Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2022 8:01 a.m. PST

Thanks Sam!


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