"New Member - Anyone Playing Assault Gun rules?" Topic

Hi all. I am newly back into micramour gaming after a 25 year hiatus. I started playing moderns with GDW's Tacforce in 1984 and ended playing WWII Spearhead in the mid-1990s.

I have been looking over the large scale rules currently available – generally one stand = one battalion – and like the look of a few like Not Quite Mechanised (NQM) and David Kershaw's Assault Gun: Operational Miniature Combat Rules 1939-1945.

While there appears to be an active community for NQM, and the game author actively responds to questions, Assault Gun appears to be an orphaned waif – unsupported, uncommented on, unloved.

Is there anyone out there playing Assault Gun or who is familiar enough with the rules to answer some questions?

An element representing a Battalion is not a common rules scale, but one which I am engaging it a lot these days. Below are links to battalion and regiment per element (stand) rules I am aware of.
youtu.be/U-b-ZrdRRAs
youtu.be/9GFw6Obzgr0

I did try Assault Gun back in 2010, I am not sure why I forgot it. I suspect the reason why I may not have pursued it is the lack of supporting materials. Its scale was a bit hard to get my head around, I understand why the author did this but I think this was a preference thing. But apart from this it did look rather interesting.

Thank you for the links to your excellent videos.

I do find the mixed Bttn/Rgt level in Assault Gun a bit odd, but as it drew from Megablitz's and adapted its SP system that doesn't seem like a fatal flaw. I like the general mechanics and have done some good small-scale solo experiments recently. But there are a few game mechanics and rules I am not entirely clear about and would love to discuss with people with more experience in the game.

Overall I am looking for a game that fulfills the following:
- microarmour/6mm game,
- allows for playing RKKA Armies, for a medium game, up to RKKA Fronts, or at least multiple Armies, for a longer game,
- places significant emphasis on command and control and logistics,
- provides for, and provides value for, all supporting elements – artillery, AT, aircraft, AAA, recce, engineers (different types), and provides the option to bring rear services into play – e.g. repair units, hospital units, replacement units, supply and logistics, etc.
- provides a moderate level of distinction among weapons and units types – not an all tanks are the same approach, but also not one that has any difference between Panther variants…

I have drawn up house rules for some of this.

I suspect you may need house rules as I can't think of any rules with fully satisfies all those requirements. Perhaps the figure game version of the SPI Modern Battles boardgame will give you the scale required. You can field an army easily. It does not have much in the way of command control. It does have simple logistics rules, but minimal figure detail.

Something like Corps Commander, or its simplified derivatives, has all the detailed requirements you list, but you will be lucky to field a division, much less an army.

LWRS may be the best fit, but each battalion is a movement tray with up to 4 elements or bases in it. I can field a couple of divisions, but once you get above that you need several days for a game. Panzer Korps using 6mm may be another option, but it would require a very large playing area and is optimised for 15mm.

I think in summery you should look at LWRS, or the reformatted version "Bewegungskrieg". It may be the best overall fit for what you are attempting to achieve. Buts its not a 100% fit.

We had a look at Assault Gun a few years back, but as you say, it is essentially just a Megablitz derivative. Tbh we'd play more Megablitz but the order chits don't work well for remote play. For operational games I tend to use my own Panzergruppe, which also uses hidden SP, unit modes etc but has brigade/division sized bases and stuff like medic/rapair is more abstracted.

I think it is fair to say that Megablitz was 'heavily influenced' by NQM, but the latter is only supported in the sense that Chris is still playing games and blogs about it. He is happy to answer questions etc though. He has a very British Army view about how battles are fought, and the rules reflect that.

KISS Rommel and its various derivatives (Division Commander etc) might be worth a look, but would need some mods for what you are after. I also rather enjoyed Hurrah Stalino, which is a f n way to push a Corps or two around, but more of a battle game and less logistics.

I haven't looked at AG in years, but what specific Qs did you have? It is basically just Megablitz, so I imagine the answers are much the same.

Also look at these two.
D-day to Berlin
link
Sitz Krieg ohne Hass
link

Also worth looking at is Panzer Korps. While each stand is a company the smallest maneuver unit is the battalion. It probably can't handle as large (multiple Armies) as you seem to be looking for, but worth a look.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Peter, where can I find a copy of LWRS and Bewegungskrieg? I assume the Bewegungskreig rules are in English? I have a little bit of German but not enough to interpret rules…

I have developed some of what I wanted on my own as house rules for Assault Gun, though some of this might be able to apply to other systems. I can post the bits here if anyone would like to see them.

I will start by posting my Assault Gun questions here. Hopefully one of you will let me know if I should ever create a new topic. Not sure how long and convoluted these topics get.

Assault Gun Rules Issue 1 – How does retreating work?

C.2.1 Retreat Movement Phase section says that a retreat affects the whole division: "Before other turns, players state if any divisions are retreating. This affects entire division."

However, it also says that halting a retreat is done by unit [i.e. stand]: "If a player wishes to halt any units from retreating, they must make a roll equal to or less than the unit's strength."

The only reason given in the rules to retreat appears to be if the players chose too. C.2.1 implies that a player could chose to have a unit retreating. C.2.3 Combat Phase allows a player to retreat to reduce casualties: "after each initiative damage roll [other than air and arty], either or both players may retreat. This means that they effectively only suffer half the number of hits, rounding up."

So does one unit [stand] choosing to retreat during the Combat Phase put the whole division into retreat, which then has to rally unit by unit??? Or are there two separate forms of retreat – a single unit withdrawn from combat to avoid casualties and an entire division electing to retreat? Assault Gun's lack of any form of Morale rule exacerbates this issue.

I am wondering if it would not just be best to "borrow" a morale rule from another game and ensure that that covers triggering retreats. Though I do really like the option in AG of retreating a unit to reduce its damage by half. That has led to some interesting dilemmas in my test games – and the introduction of a "Ne shagu nazad!" rule in some scenarios for the Soviets (though it could also be used for Germans, in 1945 for example) where the use of such a retreat option is not allowed. In play this has led to things like the rapid destruction of a Soviet RD which could have held out a bit longer had it been allowed to retreat and buy time for other Corps forces to organize a counter attack.

Assault Gun Rules Issue 2 – How do you handle Recce?

C.2.2 Recce gives two types of recce for Assault Gun – probing and distance/spotting.

Type 1 recce (Probing Recce) requires that the recce unit can reach the "enemy", presumably the target area to be probed. If successful, they attack that unit. If there is no target / "enemy" within normal movement range then there is no Probing Recce.

Question 1: Assuming their recce roll is successful, can the unit conducting probing recce instead chose not to attack? E.g. when the armoured cars discover Tiger tanks. Assuming the identity of the enemy unit is concealed until the recce is successful, the armoured car unit would not know what the enemy unit is until it committed to a probing recce and engaged with the target. If it is true that the recce unit must attack, then that would imply that true recce units be used for spotting recce only, unless a target is already identified and deemed worth engaging in combat through probing recce.

What I have been doing to date is to assume that the probing recce option does indeed force the recce-ing unit to attack (if successful on its recce roll). Therefore, I have had true recce units generally chose to move (but only up to ½) and stop at around 2 km from the target unit/area. If their recce roll is successful they then call up a proper combat unit that moves up to attack the newly revealed enemy unit (in effect they trigger a combat unit to conduct probing recce), or they call in arty fire.

Question 2: Do all units conducting probing recce receive the +1 modifier for "If units are within 1km of each other"? It looks like it but if that is the case it would seem easier to just say units conducting probing recce get +1.

Question 3: Can a unit conducting probing recce be counter-recce'd? Counter-recce is only mentioned under recce type 2 – spotting recce – but does say it can be done against a recce unit that moves. Currently, I do allow counter-recce on probing recce. If the counter-recce is successful, the original recce unit does not proceed to their intended target but instead stops and engages in combat with the counter-recce unit.

Type 2 recce – Spotting Recce is also confusing. It requires that the spotting unit remains stationary or moves up to ½ move but no closer than 2km to the enemy unit.

Question 4: What range can this spotting recce be carried out at? If the spotting unit stays stationary how far can it see? Can it just chose to "recce" any spot on the board? Seems odd. Is it the recce unit's movement range? But that would mean that units with different movements rates can spot to different distances even if they are stationary next to each other. Seems odd. I haven't yet come up with any answer to the spotting range question.

Question 5: Is the -2 "For spotting" modifier apply to any unit conducting spotting recce or only to units spotting for artillery fire? So far I have only applied the -2 for spotting to artillery spotters, not, for example, to the recce unit described above that moved to 2 km from the target area.

Question 6: How should one handle meetings engagements? What if both sides pass on recce (ii.e. finish their recce) and then proceed to Movement, but then units that haven't previously seen each other run in to each other during movement? The Other Movement phase rule, C.2.4, says units may not move within 2km of an enemy unit during the other movement phase. So does this mean that they stops at 2km from each other and then wait until the next turn? That may be ok if the contact occurred late in their movement, but it seems a bit odd to just have them sit and wait if they ran in to each other early in their movement?

Currently, for meeting engagements, I let the first side complete its movement, but then, when the second side moves, I move the first unit back to where they would meet – in effect pro-rating the movement of each. Then, instead of halting the two sides 2 km apart, I have the side with the higher troop bonus/troop quality roll as if it were conducting probing recce. Then, if combat is indicated by the results of the probing recce check, I ignore the fact that the combat phase has already passed and I have the two units immediately engage in combat. I feel that this represents to pace and ferocity of a meeting engagement.

Peter, where can I find a copy of LWRS and Bewegungskrieg? I assume the Bewegungskreig rules are in English? I have a little bit of German but not enough to interpret rules…

LWRS can be found at groups.io/g/LWRS
Bewegungskrieg (english) can be found at groups.io/g/Bewegungskrieg

LWRS are the original "canon" rules, i would suggest starting with that. Bewegungskrieg are the same rules, just reformatted with additional examples, game aids, scenarios, etc. They are on seperate sites to avoid any possible confusion.

I can't see them there. Do I need to sign up for the group first?

Yes – sign up to IO:group and ask to join.

Once you are a member go to files and download the rules.

There is a lot of wargaming material on this site, its where the yahoo group folks went.

"Assault Gun Rules Issue 1 – How does retreating work?"

It is pretty common in operational games to have unit options which trade losses for space, and in both NQM and Megablitz, any actual retreating is at the discretion of the divisional commander (although hanging around for disorganised or SP0 elements to be destroyed is a bad idea). In fact in MB it is a specific order type, and allows units to break off from combat at a higher movement rate.

So I'd say there are two forms of retreat, a tactical retreat at unit level, and a formation level retreat.

In my own rules I turned it around, the loser of a specific battle is forced to retreat, but has the option to hold fast and suffer extra losses instead. Just based on the real world observation that the most common outcome from a battalion/regiment sized engagement is that either the defender is ejected from their position or the attacker falls back their start line to reorg.

As for the recce Qs, AG seems to rather overcomplicate things. I think of recce as a swarm of light cavalry floating aro nd in front of the combat units, so yes, any recce can be counter recced, although I don't see why probing units should be forced to fight (presumably the point of probing is to find where the bad guys are and in what strength first).

In the absence of specific location ranges, then move distance is as good as anything to limit max recce distances. I would imagine a wheeled armoured car company could put patrols out much further than a few blokes on horses.

The Megablitz site is on IO;Group as well, this may be of interest as well: groups.io/g/Megablitz

Thanks, I have applied for membership in those groups. Good to see that the yahoo groups, that are still referred to in so many now-dead links, have morphed into something still accessible.

Thanks for your views Martin.

We are in the same place on retreating then. For AG I would then need to define what the unit level retreat means. Personally, I think any such move needs an element of uncertainty so just allowing a unit to pull back a few cm to half its damage seems a little generous/optimistic. But the role of the higher formation is key, so I am thinking of something where the retreating unit intends to stay within its formation's command zone, but has a chance of not managing that and continuing to back-pedal (mini-rout). Of course that chance would vary based on the HQ's ability rating (D.4.1) and other things like the HQ being out of supply (OOS – another house rules of mine not in AG proper).

The current AG full retreat rules make the choice of retreating a bit of a risky endeavour, which it should be, as the unit retreats at 1.5 times fastest possible speed all day, and any attempt at an earlier rally must be done per unit and only really works for larger units. Seems good to me.

Yes, on recce, AG seems to be a bit of a mess. I need to pick apart the different things all mixed together – the fast probing attack onto a "blind" target, the more cautious normal role of true recce, and the FOO role and give them more thought.

I don't have a copy of Megablitz as it is out of print and hard to find, especially over here in the Dominion. Maybe it is available in pdf once I get access to the groups.io site. I had not tried to hard to find it as AG was described as a development/advance off of MB. But given the number of "house rules" I have created already for my own use of AG perhaps in some cases I am unwittingly re-inventing the wheel and they are already there for MB.

Finally, you have mentioned your rules. Are these published? House rules for an existing rule set? Your own full creation?

Good to see that the yahoo groups, that are still referred to in so many now-dead links, have morphed into something still accessible.

Sadly some groups are gone forever. I tried to save as many unmanaged groups that i was a member of (all WW2,CW & Modern), but a lot of Napoleonics and Ancients groups are lost forever.

Never heard of it.

Anyone know how to get a copy of Megablitz? I can't find any for sale anywhere. I applied to the Megablitz group at groups.io but am still waiting for approval. Anyone have a copy they want to sell or know if there is an official pdf for sale?

I would also ask in the Megablitz IO:Group site, groups.io/g/Megablitz

From memory i got my copy from caliverbooks.com but i just checked and it has no stock.

I suspect NobleKnight has copies.

Nope, checked NobleKnight and it is out too. I have been waiting a couple of weeks now to get accepted into the Megablitz group.io but no reply.

I checked my sources and i could not find any copies either. I must admit i picked up my copy back in 2016 and the old MegaBlitz yahoo site was reasonably active, i suppose it has died down. Let me check with some of the guys on the IO:Group site to see what is up with membership.

I will also reach out to Tim Gow on his blog to see what is occuring.

I was able to reach out to David Kershaw. He confirmed that the v1.4 is the latest version of Assault Gun and that he has not worked on, or really played the game, since shortly after that version was released (2006). It and the latest org charts and other supporting material for Assault Gun are apparently available as free downloads on the BGG site.

He was able to clarify the question about retreats. When a unit (stand) choses to retreat to halve the casualties it receives it retreats one stand length (generally 3 cm / 1.5 km) and halts. As there is no morale rule, the separate Retreat Movement phase rule that requires a formation to retreat all day unless saves are made, only comes from a voluntary decision (!).

He didn't have enough familiarity anymore with the rules to help with the spotting distance question.

I continue to work on adding and consolidating all my house rules – as I really like the base game mechanisms of the system. However, they are entailing a full re-write and not just the addition of a few individual rules. The base system remains unchanged but I have had to alter the structure or order in which the rules are presented to better accommodate the new parts. I will share when they are done.

Best of luck, doing an extensive rewrite is a lot of work so i hope you complete your project.