"How Long After the Fall?" Topic

Most rules deal with a world not long after the event, but what about a setting much longer afterwards? Assuming the event did not damage the planet beyond repair and there were some survivors, how long before the ruins of the former world were almost unrecognizable?

This is were I prefer my Post apoc stories, centuries later to see what new societies spout.

Gama World, wasn't it? And at some point, it's simply an alien planet--possibly sharing some species with Earth as we know it.

But recognizability comes in different flavors. Educated men today might read inscriptions more than 2,000 years old and recognize names, ranks and political structures. Trained archaeologists might go back twice that far. But a really serious cultural catastrophe--think Greek Dark Ages, Conquistadores in Central America or Saxon invasion of Britain--can wipe out memory, and hence recognizability, in--well, we don't know: such periods tend not to be well documented. But probably not much over a long generation. Say 100 years. At that point, giants erected the buildings, and the inscriptions are decorations. There are perhaps legends, like the Iliad or early Welsh tales in The Dream of Macsen Wledig and the Arthurian Culhwch and Olwen. Neither of those can be much over five centuries after the events described, so that gives you a maximum.

Smack a culture hard enough, and between the lifetime of the oldest survivor and five centuries after the event, and even if some buildings stand, culturally there's nothing left but myth and legend.

Some days I even depress myself.

And truth becomes myth

In Dark Ages Britain it was common to believe that the Roman ruins had been built by giants because it was impossible to believe that people could have done that

There are various incarnations ;) of the Hawkmoon RPG around. Takes place in an undefined period in the far future.

Please, no. Not Michael Moorcock. The day's been bad enough.

But the Hawkmoon books may be dull and preachy, but they don't take place in an unrecognizable future. 'Way too much linguistic continuity. It wouldn't take that long to change Quatre Bras to Castle Brass, Great Britain to Granbretan and London to Londra.

Morrow Project was like that.

Morrow Project, yes! Although "everyone" knew that and I always wanted to run a scenario set 6 months after like you were supposed to wake up.

David Eddings did a series of books, fantasy novels set in an undisclosed place but the map looked just like a post apoc map of the Mississippi river system. Say thousands of years and lots of nuked zones later.

"A Canticle for Leibowitz" does a great job of portraying a world in which most technological things are forgotten, while the essential core of Western civilization is somewhat salvaged.

Somehow, Texarkana as the capital of a new North American empire made sense. Especially if you've ever been to Texarkana.

See Benet's "By the Waters of Babylon"

PDF link

Well there is also the terrain and buildings to consider. Part of the PA setting can be the recognized items of the past. I watched Planet of the Apes recently (original) and there was very little from our world left. In fact it was all archeology.

It got me thinking about how long a modern building would stand without war or some natural disaster to help it along? How long would an abandoned vehicle last before the ravages of time consumed it? As previously mentioned, how long before history and science and tech were just tales of the ancient ones and mysterious artifacts?

I'd guess by 5 or 6 generations a lot would be forgotten if the focus was on survival. Especially if the game setting was unusually hostile with the things I would be tempted to populate it.

"It got me thinking about how long a modern building would stand without war or some natural disaster to help it along? How long would an abandoned vehicle last before the ravages of time consumed it?"

Have a look at Chernobyl. Lot of buildings and vehicles still there after 35 years.

I like the movie 'Wizards' for post apoc.

link

I had liked the TV series "Revolution" (2012) the disaster if I remember was a giant EM pulse type thing with all power was gone. but some societies adapted use horses wagons Bikes bow a arrows learned to make muskets and things don't remember everything. There was also a movie called tooth and nail which was not great but entertaining enough. That premise was the world ran out of gas and ground to a halt. I was like the world existed before electricity and cars. "we simply ran out of Gas" that's what ended the world DUMB!

Fallout 4 takes place roughly 200 years after the bombs but it doesn't really make to much sense. Lots of stuff, like guns and clothes are knocking around, that I'm pretty sure wouldn't be in that good condition 200 years later. Buildings look in far to good condition as well even the rusty cars only look a few years old not 200 years old. Yet the wildlife has mutated and evolved pretty quickly for 200 years Mega-fauna Crabs and scorpions and two headed animals.

Having said that I love playing Fallout 4 I just think the timeline is wonky.

Interestingly another computer game was the spin off to Farcry 5, Farcry New Dawn, where the bombs only fell 17 years before yet the designers went the opposite to the usual Post Apoc wasteland and made the wildlife, especially plant life, thrive. The whole game is a riot of colourful plants and weirdly animals (who in just 17 years have evolved spots, stripes and bright colour fur).

I could never understand why one of the prevailing beliefs is that civilization would regress PA. I don't see why that would happen. There there are too many knowledgeable and downright brilliant people in the USA to let it. In my small neighborhood, in a small town that would never be a nuke target, and very likely could insulate itself from a pandemic, there are many very capable people that could survive and even thrive PA. For instance, on my street, we have an Army officer, and his brother, an NCO, both currently in the National Guard, a very capable engineer, a mechanic/cable technician who loves to work with his hands and builds racing carts, two ex FBI Agents, two nurses, a botanist, and i'm an electronics technician who's also a competitor with firearms. I know how to reload ammunition and how to create gunpowder if need be. There are many other men in the area that are vets, who and/or are proficient with firearms and own them, so we can protect ourselves from looters. Americans have a tradition of "can do" spirit and a proclivity to invention. So we will absolutely do better than just survive, and there's no way that we would regress.

Shadow@ surely it's not so much about the skills of people but the lack of resources that regresses things. A skilled surgeon or Knowledgeable doctor, for example, is great but if they can't get medicines, antibiotics and anesthesia they can't do more than a bit of first aid. Civilization thrives on communication but most forms of communication will go down quick in the PA. Supply lines will collapse to and they look shaky enough now in the pre apocalypse.

Small rural communities will almost certainly weather the apocalypse better, in my mind, but civilization as whole, especially in the big cities, will collapse pretty quickly when the food, gas, electricity and water become short supply.

Shadow, one answer is that if civilization doesn't regress, you get a straight SF story instead of post-Apoc. A story premise doesn't have to be likely--only possible. Not even that for fantasy.

Adam Smith famously said that there is a lot of ruin in a country. Ours is the wealthiest ever, and as the Shadow points out, knowledge and skills are widely to be found. My own preference in reading scifi/post apoc stuff is when something survives and can pull things back together.

The Church during and after the collapse of western Roman Empire is a good example. The bishops mostly stayed at their posts and held things together. What emerged was a DIFFERENT civilization, maybe, but a civilization nevertheless.

Prince Rupert

It's going to depend on the type PA situation. If it's a pandemic, everything will remain in place. The only thing that will be gone is the people.

A nuclear holocaust is probably the worst situation. Although the big cities will be destroyed, small communities will become more based in agriculture, and just like in 18th century America, trade will commence along with communication through trade routes. So, while there will be a temporary regression, civilizations will grow, just like they have all through history.

I suspect, too, that there are folks, here and there, making provision to preserve things. You can get an entire library on a memory device, and we know how to generate electricity. It is unlikely that the rivers will cease to fall. Just don't be in a big city.

Robert

My impression from the OP was that he wasn't talking about fantasy at all.

Doc

There are old mills in my community. One, on a river, has an old turbine in it that was used to run a trolley in town. Wind power and animal power won't disappear either. So, we *will* have electricity.

I didn't think he was, Shadow. I was just hedging my own statement that a story premise had to be possible.

That said, if I were told to set up a scenario for the collapse of civilization, I'd set in 50 years in the future to make us more dependent on computers and the computers more interlinked, and put more of the world's population in cities. Then I'd unleash a plague or combination of plagues to wipe out 99% of the population, and a set of computer viruses to wipe out digital knowledge and communications. Might toss in some EMP bursts from low Earth orbit, timed to go off after the computer viruses ought to have worked.

Now, the vast majority of the survivors will not know how to function at a lower tech level, precious few machines will work or reference works be accessible, losses will break up governmental lines of succession leave hardly any functioning families. I can't promise the end of literacy, but I think such a combination would get you to the traditional scattering of low-tech villages with the odd pocket of high-tech gear.

Alternatively, set your plague to wipe out everyone over age 8 and forget everything else. The handful of literate toddlers will be much too busy to maintain civilization.

<q?It got me thinking about how long a modern building would stand without war or some natural disaster to help it along? How long would an abandoned vehicle last before the ravages of time consumed it? As previously mentioned, how long before history and science and tech were just tales of the ancient ones and mysterious artifacts?

The History Channel had a series called After People that looked into how long physical things would last.

I was just getting ready to mention that show. It was pretty intersection and it provides a lot of terrain ideas.

I remembered a different show. It concluded the only human thing to survive the next 200,000 years would be Mount Rushmore.

There proposed timeline of events is available here – link

*interesting* Damn autocorrect.

@Norrins, nice link.

link

link

Very useful link Norrins. Thanks for sharing.