"Hey Brits - stop the self loathing" Topic

For some time now, I have noticed a number of Brits on this forum who seem to relish demeaning their own history. True, every country has darker episodes in its past (just as all individuals have done something in their past that they wish they could take back). However, all things considered, the contributions of the British (English, Welsh, and Scots) to the human condition has been a positive one that is increasingly underappreciated. I understand, the desire and sometimes the need to admit the misdeeds of the past, but over the years there have been a number of Brits (and others) on this forum that like to depict the British as the one of the most villainous people in history. If we forget the great contributions of the British (the development of constitutional government, etc.), then soon we will ultimately take those positive institutions and ideas developed by the British for granted and forget how difficult they were to acquire and maintain. In recent years I have had a number of British students, and it amazes me how many of them are woefully ignorant of their own history. For example, three of the four British students that I had in a class a few years ago were totally unfamiliar with the basics of the English Civil War and its outcomes (for example, they were unaware that England had been a republic for a brief period in its history). On the other hand, they could recount the "crimes" of Churchill (although thankfully they realized that he must have made some positive contributions in his lifetime). That said, I ask that some on this forum consider being a little more even-handed concerning the British and appreciative of their contributions to the world.

I had ancestors who fought for American Independence during the American Revolution. And I am proud of and grateful to my ancestors. But I am also thankful that my ancestors had been part of Britain's American colonies for over a century, where they developed an appreciation for their rights as Englishmen and a commitment to fight for those rights when the time came. So as an American, I am thankful for the contribution of the British in the development of American ideas and institutions.

Thanks for the post, I am proud of being English/ British, and though aware of the dark parts of our history, feel that we were one of the best colonial powers in our empire period, though the French were often kinder to their colonies!

Ps, fancy rejoining the UK? – you will be most welcome!!!!

Self-loathing? Nah – it's only *some* of our fellow countrymen that we loathe :-) .

Contentious subject. As a Brit who has called NZ home for nearly 50 years, I cannot make a call between the good and the bad of European Colonialism.
Look at the Portuguese in Brazil. The Spanish and the Catholic Church in South America. Loads of bad, but from a current world perspective, loads of good.

I did some research into a possible Australian range of figures last year. I read about the conflicts between colonists and the indigenous people. Unpleasant, to say the least.
But, one thing I was not aware of, was that Queen Victoria's government issued a decree to all British Colonies, stating that indigenous people in those colonies had the same rights as people born in Britain and should be treated as if they were British. Of course, that never happened; South Africa, Australia, NZ, Canada, simply seem to have ignored it.

European colonialism in general has brought a lot of destruction to a lot of people on this planet. But, not much we can do about it now. Other than, making sure we choose not to perpetuate it.

There is nothing wrong with nationalism. If you are a citizen of Kenya then you should be proud of the culture, history, and contributions of Kenya to the world.
The problem is not nationalism. The problem is people who want to force themselves on others using violence. That is not acceptable, as Mr. Putin may be finding out in his unwarranted invasion of Ukraine.
I am a proud American. And yes America has done things that were bad, as have all nations and peoples. No one is perfect, but I think the USA has done better than most places, as have Western European nations.
There is still more to do to eliminate war, poverty, crime, and injustice. And being proud of your nation can help to eliminate those problems, in my opinion, but without extremism.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Do we really know what is truly going on in the Ukraine?

B

Well, maybe not everything, Blutarksi. We do know Russia invaded a sovereign nation with the expressed intent to eliminate it and anyone who opposed them. We also know that Russian military forces have killed a lot of Ukranian civilians. The devil is in the details for sure.

Blutarski. Single source, ie Putin, the Russians conducted a special operation to save the world from the Nazis. The operation is successful and the Russians were welcomed with open arms. Multiple source, Intelligence agencies and hundreds of journalists Russia invaded a sovereign nation has not done very well and is responcible for the indiscrimnate bombing and murder of civilians. They have also added to their submarine fleet!

Tally Ho!

I have noticed a number of Brits on this forum who seem to relish demeaning their own history.

I wouldn't take the opinion of a few Brits on a U.S. centric wargaming site as indicative of anything quite frankly. Next, you'll have us believing that everything in the Daily Mail is true.

"Hey Brits – stop the self loathing"

After all, it's a wasteful duplication of effort: plenty of other people prepared to loathe us.

Colgar6

Self-loathing? Nah – it's only *some* of our fellow countrymen that we loathe :-) .

Yeah those blinking remainers!.

Self-loathing? Nah – it's only *some* of our fellow countrymen that we loathe :-) .

Yeah those who !!!

Lots to say here. So we are a fundamentally self deprecating culture.

Thing is there is so much history good and bad to debate.

On history our schools tend to teach the Tudors and WW1/The nazis/WW2 so there are big gaps though I note that a local school teach the American West.

I agree that the Stuarts and the interregnum are really underdone and are critical to the debates that formed the UK.

On slavery I suspect if we taught the abolition in the 1820s, how bitterly fought it was and how many rich and powerful people had slave estates kids would see us at our worst and best as a nation.

As you can see from this stream we are a divided country in many respects.

We are conducting an experiment in the hardest sort of Brexit (Paul you won and are getting what you want why whinge?) we can and I'd remind both sides on the debate that democracies are noisy and bitterly fought because the changes matter. Also democracies are not a static state (though the founding fathers appear to have made the US to be hard to do anything), we can change stuff.

I'm proud to be British and have served and am proud of our history but I know enough of it to look beyond the Churchill headlines (there's a reason why he didn't win the post war election).

Hi Nick,
You wrote – "Blutarski. Single source, ie Putin, the Russians conducted a special operation to save the world from the Nazis. The operation is successful and the Russians were welcomed with open arms. Multiple source, Intelligence agencies and hundreds of journalists Russia invaded a sovereign nation has not done very well and is responcible for the indiscrimnate bombing and murder of civilians. They have also added to their submarine fleet!
Tally Ho!"

I'm suggesting that WE as individuals have no means of really confirming/validating any of what is being reported. We here in the USA have literally thousands of media news outlets (print, TV, streaming, internet,etc, etc). 95 pct of them (including every major US media outlet) are owned by five major multi-billion dollar conglomerates. I don't know how it is on your side of the Pond, but those owners (as a group) manage, control and coordinate what is reported to the US public. Think Josepth Goebbels and the "Volkischer Beobachter" as a potential scenario.

Go here for an alternative PoV from a retired Swiss professional intelligence officer with considerable experience in the region and (presumably) no skin in the game either way –

thepostil.com/the-military- … an-update/

A lot depends upon who controls the comm channels, the volume dial and the editorial desks. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong; I'm just suggesting that you consider the possibility of "alternative geo-political scenarios" being in play.

FWIW.

B

Just got a lazy British worker the sack, recommended to my boss that he replaced him with a Ukrainian refugee. Paul you should have tried working in Germany, I tripled my wages from working in a bank, building lorries in a German factory. 1 and a half million British residents in Europe were stripped of their right to vote in the referendum.

No need to go to Germany now wages are going up in the UK

Fortunately, only some seem to participate in this practice, be they British or Americans.

20th maine – A referendum to join a trade Group, not the all powerful political beast it became. We had no choice in accepting all of the political extras. Rally over to France, I believe that they are very welcoming,

Tally Ho

Well thanks to the labour shortage my work has made an effort to retain existing staff by making us feel valued.

I'm now an Easter egg up on the deal…

to paraphrase fawlty towers "DONT MENTION THE REFERENDUM" cos all sorts of nonsense appears.
by the way i've never been keen on the word brits when did that get accepted as a group name for 4 different nations

/

Steve…

‘Brit' has become popular because it trips off the tongue rather more easily than ‘citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'!