"What weapon killed 50 people in station attack?" Topic

…Remains of a Soviet-era Tochka-U missile were found in the aftermath of the attack.

It's a short-range single warhead ballistic missile that can be fitted with a cluster warhead that carries 50 bomblets, which can detonate upon impact…

BBC: bbc.com/news/61079356

Russia says it no longer uses these older missiles, but that is disputed.

From the article:

More than 120 countries have agreed to a treaty prohibiting the use of these weapons [cluster munitions] – but not Russia or Ukraine.

As far as I know, neither has the US. A most curious omission by the article.

A most curious omission by the article.

Possibly omitted because US is not in the war.

Russians claim the direction of the fallen rocket proves it was fired by the Ukrainians.

Yes, I know the US is not in the war. But just as they mention that the treaty was signed by 120 countries, it seems relevant to note the US is not one of them. The US could even contribute cluster munitions to Ukraine at some point in the future (if they haven't already), since it has them in their arsenal and they don't subscribe to the treaty.

In this case it was a Russian made weapon. But the article makes it seem as if only Russia and Ukraine use cluster munitions which is ludicrous.

In this case it was a Russian made weapon.

Which could have been in the arsenal of Russia or Ukraine.

I think the Russians fired it, but just saying…

There are 193 countries in the world. 120 signed the treaty, 2 are at war where the rocket landed. Should they have list all 73 countries that are not signatories?

Apparently the same system the Ukrainians used to strike that airfield in Russia.

Should they have list all 73 countries that are not signatories?

Do you think all 73 countries that didn't sign the treaty are as important, military speaking, as the US, the strongest military power in the world and a historical user of cluster munitions? And one who is also providing indirect support in this war?

There are many questions about the missile attack in Kramatorsk. Russia has long since decommissioned the Tochka-U complex, replacing it with the Iskander missile system. But Tochka-U missile systems continue to be stored in Russian warehouses. So it can be assumed that non-standard weapons were removed from warehouses and used. But why? But Ukraine is actively using this missile system.
The rocket "Tochka-U" always separates the booster before falling and is always preserved. All missiles carry a factory serial number. So, the missile that attacked Kramatorsk, judging by the serial numbers, is from the same batch as the missiles previously used by Ukraine (there are a lot of videos of fragments of Ukrainian missiles of this serial batch, used by Ukraine in the war against the rebels since 2014).
And the third point – on the Ukrainian videos from the scene, the serial numbers were blurred and it became possible to see them only on the videos of foreign correspondents.
Draw your own conclusions…

Video 2015. Ukrainian rocket shot down near the city of Alchevsk:

YouTube link

Comparison of serial numbers with a rocket in Kramatorsk 2022:

Ukrainian news videos. Serial number hidden:

youtu.be/tRHfQGpp5qQ

youtu.be/xJvhnOGcMpk

Italian journalists unwittingly published the rocket's serial number on their video.

link

Why did Ukrainian journalists hide the serial number of the rocket?

A less complicated theory is that the DPR and LPR have been supplied with obsolete or captured weapon systems. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was a previous "Oopsie".
The separatists have been filmed using Mosin rifles and WW11 era ATRs.
However, it robs people of a juicy conspiracy.

Russia is using Tochka-U as seen on multiple photos and video, just one article about it: link

There are dozen of pictures of the missile with the serial number on it. That's how myself I checked that the first mention of it was true. Saying that it was blurred is just false.

Now if you setup a false flag but you leave something so obvious would be rather gross incompetence.

Btw for the MH17 flight Russia and its.proxies had also no BUK systems….

Are you really unable to perceive information adequately?
Explain to me why the Ukrainian news channels blurred the serial number of the rocket? Why do this if the rocket is Russian?

youtu.be/EggLUTVa1aI

YouTube link

YouTube link

I have not seen any court decision on the downed Boeing. And you?

"I have not seen any court decision on the downed Boeing. And you?"

Principally because the resolution at the UN to set up an overall hearing was vetoed by Russia – unsurprisingly.

The Joint Investigation Team concluded it was shot down by a Buk operated by the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade. Plenty of evidence for that and plenty of disinformation and distraction from Russia.

Trials of various individuals allegedly involved are going on now and expected to conclude later this year.

Disregarding conspiracy theories is a consequence of perceiving that "information".

Court decision is coming despite Russia refusing to cooperate link

The BBC is trying to say that cluster bombs are a banned weapon (it is in the UK) and therefore a war crime mentioning the US would undermine that message.

Oh c'mon. The Russians may be murderers and rapists but liars? No way. Yeah, right.

A less complicated theory is that the DPR and LPR have been supplied with obsolete or captured weapon systems.

Yes, I believe this is the most likely explanation.

My point wasn't that this isn't a Russian (or allied) attack, because it very probably is.

I just found it… curious… that a BBC article mentioning the evils of cluster munitions would fail to mention the US has a stockpile of them, has used them in late 20th century wars, and is not a signatory of the ban on cluster munitions either. Just like Russia and Ukraine. I'm going to go on a wild guess and estimate that the US and Russia are the most frequent users, by volume, of cluster munitions in the whole world.

I'm going to go on a wild guess and estimate that the US and Russia are the most frequent users, by volume, of cluster munitions in the whole world.

Yes, the difference being the target was a train station full of evacuating civilians (in a humanitarian corridor?).

This is the latest interesting investigation on this subject:

link

Yes, the difference being the target was a train station full of evacuating civilians (in a humanitarian corridor?).

The treaty banning cluster munitions, which the US refuses to sign, makes no difference on where they are employed.

Again, it's just curious the BBC decided to omit this bit of relevant information. Just curious, nothing else.

The treaty banning cluster munitions, which the US refuses to sign, makes no difference on where they are employed.

Use your common sense. Using these weapons against civilians is unconscionable.

So why did Ukrainian propaganda try to hide the serial number of the "Russian" rocket? Your opinion?
This incident is absolutely not beneficial for Russia. But for Ukraine, the advantages of it are more than obvious. New money, motivation, weapons…

So why did Ukrainian propaganda try to hide the serial number of the "Russian" rocket? Your opinion?

Why would they care? The serial numbers don't matter, they don't tell us anything (see Bellingcat article referenced above).

"Use your common sense. Using these weapons against civilians is unconscionable."

And illegal. Deliberately targeting civilians is illegal no matter the system used.

"Again, it's just curious the BBC decided to omit this bit of relevant information."

There's nothing relevant about the US not being a signatory of this treaty. The US is not currently involved in this war and there is zero chance the US fired the missile.

So why did Ukrainian propaganda try to hide the serial number of the "Russian" rocket? Your opinion?

Perhaps to avoid this kind of conspiracy theory.

This incident is absolutely not beneficial for Russia. But for Ukraine….

This attitude appears to be a reflection on the value of human life in Russia, not Ukraine.
There is already a massive international investigation and outrage going on in Bucha, Hostamel, etc. There's no need to generate a red flag event. Very silly theory.

Bill,

Use your common sense. Using these weapons against civilians is unconscionable.

The ban against cluster munitions, mentioned in the article, exists because there's no way to safely use them that won't affect civilians both during the actual conflict and for years to come. They are like landmines in this respect.

It's relevant because it doesn't matter how you use these munitions, most countries in the world agree you mustn't at all *because of civilians*. Except Russia, Ukraine and… the US.

I'm just saying it's a most curious omission.

You seem to be pushing an agenda.

As mentioned, it was probably censored due to worry of possible conspiracy theories, rather than for other more practical means.

You've now confirmed that worry, Cuprum2.

I don't think Ukrainians would really target their own civilians at a train station with such weapons, but as we've seen from the obliteration of entire cities by the Russian military criminals, that IS their "go-to" tactic against the Ukrainian civilians there, in hundreds, if not thousands of examples, causing the deaths of reportedly tens of thousands of innocent people there now, including numerous women and children.

I don't believe that Russia's words about not using these weapons are a truth.

In case anyone with a sane mind wants to stay on top of debunked Russian bot propaganda:

Just scroll down a bit:
Falsified BBC News video spreads in Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels

What have the Ukrainians to say about it?
Fake: Serial Number Confirms Kramatorsk Train Station Hit by Ukrainian Tochka U Missile

And what is the position of the US Departement of Defense? (long read)
Senior Defense Official Holds a Background Briefing

If they are bots, it doesn't matter what I reference.
If they are not, but true believers, I like to watch them die inside.

I probably still have my notes lying around somewhere about Bezmenov's Soviet subversion model from the 80's.
The same crap since time immemorial, only more mediocre each time.
But then, the real target audience, the Russians in the motherland and their dependent auxiliaries are rather simple-minded.

what was the inscription handwritten on the side in white chalk?

Arjuna, all these "proofs" are a primitive sketch of irrelevant facts. An attempt to drown evidence in empty words. For some reason, a discussion began on the number of the 89 serial batch of Soviet missiles manufactured (the initial digits of the number are the missiles used in Syria by the Syrian troops (!), Although a missile with the initial digits 91 was used in Kramatorsk. The difference between these missiles is 1757 other missiles manufactured. what is this "exposure"?
Ukraine tried to hide the number of the rocket, and Russia could not influence this in any way. This is an interesting fact that no one has explained. Everything else is verbiage.

On the rocket the inscription: "for the children". Due to the peculiarities of the language, it is difficult to understand the correctness of this abbreviated phrase. The full meaning should be something like this: "Revenge for the affected children". You can easily find analogues in the slogans on Soviet military equipment during the Second World War.

Since russia's invasion of Ukraine and until the withdrawal of russian troops, there is only one relevant fact in this war for any right-minded person:

The blood-red markings on the bodies of dead russian soldiers.

russia leaves, pays reparation to its 'little brother' it wants to beat into submission and everything will be fine.

Simple truth.