"Is the Azov Regiment still in business?" Topic

Yes Bill, I have heard the experts. I am not impressed.

I suggest you broaden your sources.

Joe Collins

I suggest you broaden your sources.

My sources are rather broad already.

Bill, this is the one I saw.

YouTube link

@ jwmdd91, you really don't have a clue do you. Are you really serious? British police, NATO training camps? BTW, the US had a block prohibiting funding to Azov, which was quietly lifted. Please read on.

So Mates, why don't you research the 2017 Guardian Mini-Doc Exposing Ukraine's Neo-Nazi Azov Youth Camps. I did, and it's out there in full disclosure, the video quite reveling. Don't know what I can report here since my last post was sniped by Editor Bill. But I'll try.

In the documentary (please see for yourself)a boy notes that members "beat people" at "gay pride" events, and that Neo-Nazi soldiers "are normal people".

An Azov fighter working at the camp tell the camera crew the neo-Nazi group "has transformed into a Ukrainian movement.", adding, "Now it's a political movement."

Watching the video from the Guardian which I encourage all to view, you see the tattoos of Nazi symbols, skulls, and "white pride" on the back of legs.

2017 Guardian Mini-Doc.

Don't know what I can report here since my last post was sniped by Editor Bill.

Let's review the forum rules, OK?

If you quote something, provide the source.

If you quote something, copyright limits you to about three paragraphs of content.

Now stop whining.

Not Whining Bill, I just quoted the source of my last post as being the 2017 Guardian Min-Doc that exposed Ukraine's Neo-Nazi Azov Youth Camps. Is this OK? Trying to stay within the "guardrails".

Pendekar

- I don't need to talk about problems with democracy and freedom of speech in Russia – I know this better than you. I say that Ukraine is definitely no better in this respect.

- Even Ukraine has not ratified the Budapest Memorandum (on nuclear weapons). Why are you linking to a legally invalid document?

- I consider the hoisting of the Russian flag in Ukrainian settlements disgusting. There should be a flag of the DPR, since Mariupol is part of the Donetsk region (now a republic).

- The Russians are taking the population of Mariupol out of the combat zone. More than 60 thousand people were taken to the territory of the DPR and to Russia. But this is not an easy task, it takes time. In addition, many do not want to leave their apartments and property unattended and refuse to evacuate.

Chief Editor Bill

- Turkey (and France) proposed the evacuation of Ukrainian military personnel, not civilians. Russia is not interested in the Nazis leaving this territory.

Tsar Alexander II

- All other countries, except for the USA and Ukraine, were not embarrassed.

Darrell B D Day

- As much as you want:

link

link

link

True, some discussions are closed by administrators, but only because passions are running high and people are sliding into primitive insults.

In Russia, you will not be judged for your personal opinion. In Russia, you can only be prosecuted for making public calls to oppose the government. These are different things.

I just quoted the source of my last post as being the 2017 Guardian Min-Doc that exposed Ukraine's Neo-Nazi Azov Youth Camps. Is this OK?

You need to provide the link, and limit how much you quote.

The Russians are taking the population of Mariupol out of the combat zone.

War crime. Illegal. Confiscating passports and IDs, taking away cellphones, and separating families from one another.

Turkey (and France) proposed the evacuation of Ukrainian military personnel, not civilians.

Incorrect. Russia demands to inspect the civilians to stop any military from escaping.

In Russia, you will not be judged for your personal opinion. In Russia, you can only be prosecuted for making public calls to oppose the government. These are different things.

In Russia, a schoolteacher is being charged with a crime after telling the truth about the war to her students.

Cuprum,

- Even Ukraine has not ratified the Budapest Memorandum (on nuclear weapons). Why are you linking to a legally invalid document?

Are you saying that Ukraine didn't get rid of their nuclear weapons? Or that they did and then decided they didn't want to accept the "guarantees" that were offered by the other parties?

I am not saying the "guarantees" were worth anything in the first place, just trying to understand this invalid document claim…

Or are you saying that the agreement was with the old Ukraine, but they no longer exist, and a new country came along and now say they are Ukraine?

This seems like a dumb debate. I support Ukraine in this war and especially the Ukrainian people. If I were younger, I would like volunteer for the volunteer forces there. However, if you think pre-war Ukraine wasn't a haven for corruption and home to some pretty far out s, then you weren't paying attention. Yes, the Azov crew are Neo-Nazis. Their emblem has a swastika on it. Seriously, Ukraine was not a perfect country, so stop burying your heads in the sand or pretend that it was a Utopia.

I saw an interview in the past two days with Zelesnsky being flat out asked about the Azov Nazi past and he basically shrugged and said, ‘They are what they are.'

Does that mean Ukraine is evil or a Nazi country? Absolutely not. Every country has extremist nut jobs- including the US and Russia.

Does that mean Russia had the right to invade to remove them? Absolutely not. Russia lost any moral claims the minute they invaded.

Are there Russian War Crimes being committed? Yes, I have no doubt. Were they ordered from above? Need more proof.

Are there Ukrainian war crimes being committed? I have no doubt. Were they ordered from above? I would doubt it, but need more proof. Also, my sympathy is with the invaded country, not the invader. Hard to whine about War crimes when you shouldn't be there in the first place.

The so-called Republics of Donbas and Donetsk are fiction. They are mixed population regions that are in open Civil War against the central government. Russia can call them the Kingdoms of Frankincense and Myrrh for all anyone cares. The Russians don't belong there, and if they weren't there, Ukraine would have the opposition wrapped up quickly. Calling it Manchukuo didn't make it less of a Japanese puppet. Same thing here.

Are people way to into the sport of watching Russians die? Yes. This isn't a sport. People are dying and some sick crap is being done to people that shouldn't be happening. I take no joy from the killing of Russian conscripts, even if I do feel good about Ukrainian successes.

TLDR; is Ukraine squeaky clean? No.

Does that justify a war against them? Hell no.

Is salivating over killing Russians messed up? Yes, and if you are, take a long hard look in the mirror.

@Tgerritsen – Well said.

Chief Editor Bill

- Evacuation from the city is carried out at will, not by force.
- The school teacher has the right to her opinion. But without the permission of her parents, she has no right to impose her views on minor children. And no one is judging her yet, her case is being considered by the investigation.

Pendekar

- Do you know how such documents acquire legal force? The country's parliament must vote for this document – only after that it becomes valid. This is called ratification. None of the parties ratified this document, that is, did not recognize it as valid.
It's just a worthless piece of paper. Declaration of intent and nothing more.

Tgerritsen

You are entitled to your own opinion. And I respect your right. Everything else has already been discussed many times, I see no reason to repeat.

Do you know how such documents acquire legal force? The country's parliament must vote for this document – only after that it becomes valid. This is called ratification. None of the parties ratified this document, that is, did not recognize it as valid.
It's just a worthless piece of paper. Declaration of intent and nothing more.

Thanks for your view..

Sounds like Ukraine got scammed… ("OK, everyone let's sign this paper.. OK, great, thanks for giving up your nukes, by the way, now after you did that, did I mention that none of the countries really agreed to this? ha ha … ")

Anyways, I am not interested in arguing about it. And I also don't think it would have done them any good to keep them. (Control being with Moscow, expensive to maintain, they got monetary incentives as well, etc…)

Yes, sure. Fat Kim from North Korea apparently also guesses something.

And although you are not interested, but still ask yourself why Ukraine, the USA and Great Britain HAVEN'T RATIFIED this document?

Tgerritsen has made a very sensible summing up. I'd go along with his view out of all the others here.

Incidentally, I wouldn't say that a teacher getting into trouble for teaching things the government doesn't like is a sign of a dictatorial régime – it happens quite a lot here in the UK when a teacher strays into one of those subjects which are imposed by a vocal minority of activists; things like gender identity, immigration, Islamic fundamentalism. We consider ourselves a democracy yet there are many different ways to discretely impose censorship on, for example, teachers. We also shouldn't get too smug about invading sovereign nations. It's not that long since the invasion of Iraq on the flimsiest of excuses.

None of which excuses what's happening in Ukraine as summed up by Tgeerritsen.

DBDD

@War Scorpio – thanks for that, I never knew the internet existed.
Your post was snipped so i can't read it, but if it is from one source then hmmm, not really compelling. Again I say, western media are always on the hunt for sensationalism and right now if that stuff were true it would be selling copy left right and centre. So excuse my somewhat cynical take on things.

Well, my query about the status of the Azov Regiment was certainly answered! I also stirred up a great deal of discussion, which had not been my intent.
There was a certain amount here I didn't understand, many things that I didn't know, and a number of insights into what is going on in the Ukraine. I don't agree with everyone on every point, but it has been interesting.

Grelber

Maybe I missed it … But … What was the beginning strength of the Nazi Azoz Rgt ? And currently for that matter …

Best guesses I've seen say the "Nazi" Azov regiment is between 900-1000

Far smaller than the "Nazi" Wagner Group…….which best guesses estimate to be between 2000-6000.

As to size(s) now ? Don't think anyone really knows

Thanks for that estimate. I too had heard they were not a really large force. But yes, Wagner Grp is considerably larger. Plus the "Nazis" have taken some losses.

So yes, I agree … no buddy really knows, outside those units.

Errata !!! That should be – "nobody" – damn autocorrect !!!! DOH !

I want to third @Tgerritsen's post. Pretty much what I think.

Videos and news of both civilians and surrendered soldiers being killed in cold blood make me sick, regardless of the perpetrator. But of course, if the invasion hadn't taken place, none of that would be happening.

But I'm repeating Tgerritsen's words.

PS: I'm now convinced the neonazi excuse was just an excuse. Yes, Azov Battalion are neonazis and it's pointless to deny that. But they can't be the reason for the invasion, since they are very few, and Russia is employing neonazi mercs anyway. Neonazi slavic peoples! It boggles the mind, when the nazis historically wanted to wipe them all out.

link

Azov troops ambushing hapless Russians or their proxies. Azovs seem well trained, move well with distance between soldiers and good skills in general. The Russians around the truck seem more or less like armed civilians. They have absolutely no clue what to do. I almost feel sorry for them, almost. Especially the last grenade blast…

Well sounds like a standard… The anti-Russian Forces, no matter who they are, preform much better tactically, etc. vs any Russians.

Well that was a horror show from opening frames and not perhaps for some of the obvious reasons.

Whoever trained those men, lead them and wrote the orders for that operation, there are plenty of historic traitors executed on the basis of less information than shown in that video.

there are plenty of historic traitors executed on the basis of less information than shown in that video.

True … but regardless, like Putin, will any of these "traitors" go to trial, etc.?

It was in the news that, as a sign of Ukrainian unity, the Ukrainian LGBTQ community made a large donation to the Azov troops. (The Azov was formerly accused of being anti-LGBTQ.)

I do not know how much or even what Is true about the Azovs. All I know that they fight like men possessed and with great skill. They are manning the bulwarks of western culture against the asiatic hordes.

Hardly this is Slav on Slav….something Putin would probably rather forget! Mariupol was arguably one of the most pro-Russian of Ukraine's cities. I'd bet total war and forced deportation may have rather dinted the ethnic Russian's opinions of irredentism.

FWIW IMO the Azov units Nazi reputation is probably somewhat overblown at least over the last couple of years.

The Azov was formerly accused of being anti-LGBTQ.)

At this time that should be a secondary consideration. The Ukraine is literally fighting for it's life. It is a matter of priorities.

soledad +1

Azov units Nazi reputation is probably somewhat overblown at least over the last couple of years.

Regardless it appears they best the Russians handily. IMO the priority is throwing the Russians out of the Ukraine. LGBTQ and Nazis are a secondary consideration until that happens.

Regardless it appears they best the Russians handily.

Wouldn't argue with that. Though on the basis of some of the video evidence I've seen better small unit tactics and team work from teenagers playing FPSs than from the Russian army!

Fortunately, the Russians are not very good at tactics, fieldcraft, etc., i.e. real soldiering in general.

Giving the Ukrainians a very good shot at "winning" …

Not in business for very much longer. Serhiy Volyna, the leader of the Ukrainian marines is appealing for extractions as Russian forces close in. Don't know how this can be accomplished if you look at the map. Helicopter evacuation or amphibious rescue? Not likely. He claims it's a matter of days if not hours.

A corridor has been opened to let the civilians out. After that? I think we all know.

Soldiers of the 36th Separate Marine Brigade, together with other units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the National Guard, have successfully conducted a joint special operation to evacuate border guards and police to the "Azovstal" plant [which Ukrainian soldiers are still defending]…

Broke through in armored vehicles to the seaport, brought them back to the factory.

Ukrainian Pravda: link

Bringing them back to the Factory is a "success"? So you think they will be rescued and live to fight another day, from their isolated position in the factory in Mariupol? You do see the map, correct? What do you think the prospects of they escaping? Curious to get your opinion Bill.

Ukraine has offered russian prisoners exchange for the free passage of those in that factory.
Does Putin care about his soldiers as much as Zelensky does about his?

@War Scorpio

The marines and Azov are tying down large numbers of Russians and their Chechen ilk. As russia have shown surrender is not an option. Either you fight and die or you surrender and are tortured and murdered by the Russians.

In that case I would chose to fight because if I fight at least there is an minuscule chance of me surviving, if I surrender there is no chance at all.

As for the poor civilians they will most likely be murdered or put in Gulags in Siberia.

Russia has shown time and again that they cannot fight with any kind of honor or fairness or follow even the most basic rules of war.

Russia is just plain evil.

Soledad +1

Again my $ is on the Ukrainian forces …

According to media Vladimir Putin today announced that "they no longer need to storm the Azov steel works. As it it not necessary to control it"

So War Scorpio it seems like resisting was better than surrender.

If the only thing you can lose is your life and nothing can change it most people will go down fighting. Because if you fight you might win. But if you surrender to murderous thugs like the Russians you will die guaranteed.

What Russia do not understand is that you should treat your opponent nicely and always leave a way out. If soldiers think they can survive by surrendering or fleeing many chose that option. But if there is no such option most fight to the death.

Never corner opponents too much.

But Russia has proved that fighting them there is no option to surrender or give ground.

Ronald Reagan in the -80s called Soviet Union "The evil empire". How very very true.

Russian state television

link

Wire tapped call about executing POW:s, in Russian

link

@ soledad "So War Scorpio it seems like resisting was better than surrender." Where did you get this from? Stop putting words in my mouth and misstating my comments. On another post I thought is was better for Ukraine to pull back from parts of Donbas otherwise they would be cut off and surrounded. I never suggested surrender, why don't you post where I said this, you won't find it, stop lying.

The topic of this post is the status of the Azov Battalion. Both Putin and Zelenskyy confirm Mariupol is under the control of the Russians. Some Ukrainian forces there were able to escape the airport and get to the Azovstal Metallurgical plant. This is the last holdout, like the Factory Works in Stalingrad. No need to storm it, as there are still about 1,000 civilians there. Look at the map, they are so far behind lines, they will not be rescued.

Tying up troops? Russia has called up another 60,000 reservists to keep control of captured areas so front line regular troops can keep up the attack. Russia now controls 80 percent of Luhansk per a Ukrainian official.

The Azov Battalion will soon cease to exist. Regular Ukrainian forces will be taken prisoner. Azov, the guys with Nazi tattoos, that's another story. I think we know what will happen to them.

"As for the poor civilians they will most likely be murdered or put in Gulags in Siberia". You really don't have a clue do you? Your comments undermine your credibility.

Again … will Russian numbers be the deciding factor … or their overall poor quality of troops, etc. be decisive ? Plus the Ukrainians aggressiveness and over all combat prowess vs the Russian's opposite/lack of combat effectiveness, etc., etc., …

What do you think the prospects of they escaping? Curious to get your opinion Bill.

The Azov seems to have the tactical initiative around the factory. They are still able to raid other parts of the city, and they are still destroying Russian armor.

Both Putin and Zelenskyy confirm Mariupol is under the control of the Russians.

Not so fast. US says that is Russian disinformation: link

I have never claimed you wrote that. It is my opinion. When fighting savages surrendering is not an option and russians behave like savages.

And as I understand you Azov troops will be executed EVEN IF THEY SURRENDER. That is how I interpret your text.

As for deportations to Siberia there is proof people have been sent to khabarovsk…

I believe Ukraine will win this war. I think alot of russians will die. And that is a good thing as there are then less russians who can invade my country and rape pillage and plunder. Because that is what russian troops do and the that is why i fear them and strongly dislike russians.

Bill & soledad +1 … If Russia [or China] say it … it is probably disinformation/propaganda. If the Azoz Bn is killing Russians … go for it.

Back to the OP it seems clear from video today that at least some elements of the Azov unit are active in parts of Ukraine other than Mariupol.

I hope there is a whole bunch of them all over the Ukraine.

"Azov" is not only an official regiment in the Ukrainian armed forces. Azov is a vast organization of neo-Nazis who have been trained for many years by specialists and veterans from this regiment. Based on the meringue of this organization, many territorial defense battalions have been formed, and all of them are actually an integral part of Azov. Very similar to the SS stormtroopers in the Third Reich.

DPR strike units have been deployed from Mariupol to the main front. Parts of the national guard remain to control the encircled Nazis. Numerous strikes are inflicted on the plant with heavy artillery and heavy air bombs (1-3 tons). Every day, for two hours, the fire stops for the possibility of surrender to everyone who wishes. The rest will die of hunger and thirst. The Nazis are doomed.

The Economist has assessed the damage in Mariupol as of April 17 based on satellite imagery. Housing stock damaged by 33%, industrial areas – by 60%

link

According to the mayor of Mariupol, about 5 thousand citizens died.

link