"The baggage, the baggage…" Topic

"The need for sensible deployment of the supply wagons before a battle – and their protection – was crucial, yet we often fail to represent this at all in our games.

It is often not clear what armies did with their wagons prior to a battle. Contemporary maps normally don't cover such deployments, and modern ones invariably fail to do so.

The difficulty of disentangling troops from their baggage, and dire consequences of failing to exert control in this area is well illustrated by the following French comment on their disastrous defeat at Ramillies in 1706 (de Feuquieres, 1737)…"

From Kriegsspiel Blog

link

Armand

That may yet prove to be the lesson of Ukraine as well. Safeguard your supply lines and do ot ignore logistics.

(smile)

Armand

I often designate baggage areas in my games, even modeled markers for them as objectives for cavalry sweeps, with their loss causing the withdraw, of troops. Nerve wracking to worry about this. I also designate a line of communication at the edge of the board which must be protected.

Quite interesting… thanks!.

Armand

How often is an attack on the baggage camp noted in Napoleonic battle accounts – conventional battles, I mean?

I know it featured in a number of battles in the ancient and mediaeval period but I don't really recall it being a feature of Napoleonic battles.

Cheers,
John

Have done a couple 7YW battles and at least 1 the Prussians got well into the Russians wagonburg

Nice!

Thanks for share!

Armand

Didn't the British and Portuguese troops loot the French baggage train after Salamanca, instead of pursuing the French?

You are right… and that stop any persecution of the defeated French…

Armand

Indeed, so it can't have been that far away from the main body…

Vittoria perhaps? King Joseph lost all his wealth and papers fleeing the battle because he hadn't dared leave anything behind in Madrid.

Yes… it was Vittoria… they lost even a Marshal batton…

Armand

Did it ever play a role in the battle itself though, or just the aftermath / pursuit?

I'm curious because I love the idea of baggage camp models but I don't want to do a whole lot erroneously thinking I'll be able to use them in games . . .

Cheers,
John

John

Several of the scenarios in Michael Hopper's excellent "Eagles Over Bavaria 1809" feature the Austrian baggage train in the retreat from Bavaria. For example both the Geisenhausen and Regensburg scenarios feature a race for the Austrians to extricate their baggage trains over a river while holding off the pursing French/Allies.

I've not played either yet but they look fun and certainly give me an excuse for assembling an Austrian baggage train.

Cheers
Jim

Before looking at higher level formation's parks and such (1-2 km to the rear, or more), even the regiments in the field had quite a good number of people and vehicles not formed in the ranks.

For an example, a French light infantry regiment of 4 battalions 1811/1812 ….

brigade d'infanterie légère : général de brigade
--- capitaine premier aide de camp, lieutenant aide de camp, voltigeur ordonnance, 4x domestique (palefrenier, picquier et 2x valets)
[chariot et voiture du général]

1ere demi-brigade : colonel commandant du régiment
--- tête de colonne : caporal-sapeur, 16x carabinier-sapeur
--- musiciens militaires : chef de musique, 7x musicien
[rang à la turque : caisse claire, caisse roulante, 2x paire de cymbales, grosse caisse, chapeau-chinois, triangle]
--- musiciens gagistes : jusqu'à 14x musicien
[rang de bois : 2x basson, 2x clarinette, hautbois, 2x flûte]
[rang de la grande musique : 2x trombone, 2x serpent, trompette, 2x clarion]
--- train du régiment : lieutenant officier payeur, sous-officier vaguemestre, sergeant du train d'équipages, caporal garde-magazine, 6x soldat du train d'équipages, 4x ouvrier d'artillerie (2x charron/charpentier & 2x forgeur/serrurier)
[caisson pour des papiers et d'argent, voiture d'ambulance, forge de campagne]
--- voltigeur ordonnance, 2x domestique (palefrenier et valet)

1er bataillon de guerre : chef de bataillon
--- capitaine adjudant-major, 2x adujdant sous-officier, 2x sergent guide-général
--- tiré de la compagnie d'artillerie régimentaire : 5x soldat du train d'équipages
[caisson de cartouches d'infanterie, caisson du pain]
--- batterie : tambour-major, 10x tambour, 2x cornet
--- medicins : chirurgien-major, chirurgien sous-aide
--- femmes de troupe : vivandière, 3x blanchisseuse
--- garde de l'aigle ou d'enseigne tricolore : lieutenant port-aigle, sergent 2e porte-aigle, sergent 3e porte-aigle, 6x caporal-fourrier

2e bataillon de guerre : chef de bataillon
--- capitaine adjudant-major, 2x adujdant sous-officier, 2x sergent guide-général
--- tiré de la compagnie d'artillerie régimentaire : 5x soldat du train d'équipages
[caisson de cartouches d'infanterie, caisson du pain]
--- batterie : 10x tambour, 2x cornet
--- medicins : aide-chirurgien, chirurgien sous-aide
--- femmes de troupe : vivandière, 3x blanchisseuse
--- garde d'enseigne blanc : sergent-major de carabiniers port-enseigne, 2x sergent de chasseurs, 6x caporal-fourrier

compagnie d'artillerie régimentaire
--- capitaine ou lieutenant commandant, sergent major, caporal-fourrier, 2x sergent d'artillerie, 2x caporal d'artillerie, 32x canonier
--- 4x canon de 3-livres autrichien modèle 1753
--- sous-lieutenant, sergent du train d'artillerie, caporal du train d'artillerie, 24x soldat du train d'artillerie
--- 4x affût autrichien modèle 1770, 6x caisson d'artillerie

2e demi-brigade : major en 2e commandant
--- voltigeur ordonnance, 2x domestique (palefrenier et valet)

3e bataillon de guerre : chef de bataillon
--- capitaine adjudant-major, 2x adujdant sous-officier, 2x sergent guide-général
--- tiré de la compagnie d'artillerie régimentaire : 5x soldat du train d'équipages
[caisson de cartouches d'infanterie, caisson du pain]
--- batterie : 10x tambour, 2x cornet
--- medicins : aide-chirurgien, chirurgien sous-aide
--- femmes de troupe : vivandière, 3x blanchisseuse
--- garde d'enseigne rouge : sergent-major de carabiniers port-enseigne, 2x sergent, 6x caporal-fourrier

4e bataillon de guerre : chef de bataillon
--- capitaine adjudant-major, 2x adujdant sous-officier, 2x sergent guide-général, voltigeur ordonnance
--- tiré de la compagnie d'artillerie régimentaire : 5x soldat du train d'équipages
[caisson de cartuouches d'infanterie, caisson du pain]
--- batterie : 10x tambour, 2x cornet
--- medicins : aide-chirurgien, chirurgien sous-aide
--- femmes de troupe : vivandière, 3x blanchisseuse
--- garde d'enseigne bleu : sergent-major de carabiniers port-enseigne, 2x sergent, 6x caporal-fourrier

I don't think I really meant baggage, more like a supplies/ammo secondary objective. It does set up some cavalry clashes and adds pressure and decisions to commanders, along with protecting the communications line. I don't know how realistic it is, but it is interesting.

I can't think of any significant battle in the ACW in which an attack on the supply wagons WITH THE ARMY played much part in a battle. But forces were almost always detached to guard these, thus somewhat diminishing the forces engaged. (In a relatively small battle at Carthage MO in '61 Franz Sigel had to retreat from a larger force of Missouri State Guards mainly due to the threat that their mounted (tho poorly armed) troops could get around his flanks and attack his wagons if he didn't.)

On the other hand, deep raids on supply lines, especially relatively fragile railroads, were frequent.

Jim wrote:

"Several of the scenarios in Michael Hopper's excellent "Eagles Over Bavaria 1809" feature the Austrian baggage train in the retreat from Bavaria."

Yes, these would make great games. I have that 1809 series but haven't read them through fully yet.

I had visions of people having a 'camp' on the baseline as ancients / mediaeval games often do (and appropriately, even if distance is conflated to do it).

But I definitely think there is great scope for the type of game you refer to, or the type played out here link and link

Cheers,
John

Cosscks and unreliable Austrian horse need a target that isnt gonna fight back now and again!

Thanks also.

Armand