"500 Stinger missiles & 500 Javelin missiles PER DAY" Topic

Scooplet: Ukraine has told the US it needs 500 Stinger missiles & 500 Javelin missiles PER DAY, according to an updated wishlist for military assistance obtained by CNN…

Twitter: link

That's 15,000 of each per month.

Seems like a bit more than necessary to me, even assuming an only 10% hit success rate.

I don't think there are that many tanks and IFVs, or jets in use by the Russians in Ukraine.

That does seem to be an awful lot of missiles …

It pays to have a few backups.

Perhaps they would use more if they had more? You can always find something to blow up. Or it may be a case of ask for 500 and get the 100 you actually wanted.

We can probably assume a usage rate of 40-50 per days per point of contact.

There are probably up to 8 active areas, that would make 300-400 Javelins per day to feel comfortable plus 20% spare/reserve. Assuming constant friction.

500 per day is not too far off from peak usage. For at least 15 active days, that'd be a total of 7,500 Javelin missiles (cost probably around USD 10 billions).

Are they using them on anything and everything?

You have to have them spread out all over the country even in areas of limited or no engagement so they are there when needed. You also have to train people and not every fired weapon is a hit or it may take a couple hits to insure a kill.
Just as the Germans in WWII tried to give everyone a panzerfaust it would seem a good idea to give most Ukraine soldiers some kind of anti-armor, even if they are only carrying it for the anti-tank firing guy.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

These are guided fire and forget weapons systems I am willing to bet they have higher hit to miss ratios than previous generation AT weapons. How many people are they training to use a Javelin? I am willing to bet they are not passed out willy nilly like LAW rockets or RPGs.

When I was a Dragon Gunner I had to attend a weeklong school. The course work included use of the weapon but also target identification and priority. High priority targets were ZSU-23-4 followed up by tanks, it was considered a waste to use an ATGM on a BRDM, BTR or BMP. In a platoon of 40 only four were trained to use ATGMs, two primary gunners and two back ups. Some class room training was done to familiarize the other members of the platoon how to use one but they were never allowed to fire a live round they were just to expensive.

I am wondering if they are being used on every AFV they come across?

Do not forget about the big trophies taken by the Russian troops and the troops of the pro-Russian rebels. Yesterday, Russia handed over 138 captured Javelins to the armies of the DPR and LPR

Do not forget about the big trophies taken by the Russian troops and the troops of the pro-Russian rebels.

And all the Ukrainians capture are Russian rations that expired in 2015…

How many dead Russian soldiers does that amount to per captured Javelin? Or is that of no consequence? Of course if Russian leadership still works as it did in WW2, dead common everyday Russians don't matter to them.

I think that for the manufacture of fakes, Ukrainian propagandists could find fresher rations;)
Since 2014, Russia has been delivering to the LPR and DPR. And all these years, to this day, there has been a continuous war in the Donbass. I think when the Ukrainians got these rations, they could still be used.
Do you want to look at the captured Ukrainian tanks and other combat vehicles that are fighting against their former owners? According to the order, all captured military equipment is transferred to the LPR and DPR troops. This has been going on since the first days of the war. Here are some interesting videos on this topic:

youtu.be/ygyU9NiFtcY

youtu.be/_qumvAgSDq0

youtu.be/mEqP8jCsa34

According to official data as of yesterday, about 1,350 servicemen of the Russian army were killed, and almost four thousand were wounded. The losses of the armies of the DNR and LNR were not published. They are probably more significant, since it is they who break through the defense of the Ukrainian troops in the Donbass, which was created for eight years.

The loss of those killed in the Soviet army during the Second World War is about 11 million people. Of these, 3 or 4 million are prisoners of war exterminated by the Nazis. The army did not suffer any catastrophic losses (if we judge the war as a whole). The remaining figures are civilian dead, often deliberately destroyed by the Nazis.

Reading between the lines of media reports and briefings they are probably lobbing stingers at targets almost as a deterrent.

I wouldn't be surprised if Javelins are being used against things other than tanks. The Russian army are firing wire-guided ATGW at Ukrainian infantry positions…. Probably ought to offer them more unguided weapons for winkling out defensive positions. Probably cheaper.

I would note that diplomatically the Ukrainian government seems to use the crude negotiating technique of going in high and hoping that they get something reasonable. TBH I suspect they don't have the bandwidth or the time for anything more sophisticated.

Many Russian anti-tank systems are regularly equipped with high-explosive fragmentation ammunition. For actions not only on armored vehicles.

I enjoy how Caprum2 updates us with the Russian propaganda efforts. It helps gives me a more balanced view. I take reports from both sides with a healthy scepticism.

You do not see the main problem, which is already manifesting itself significantly in the Ukrainian army – the lack of fuel. And this is according to Ukrainian sources. Fuel was purchased in Russia and Belarus.
Now the Russian army is methodically destroying warehouses with weapons, fuel, military and repair factories, places of concentration and training of military personnel in the rear. In the occupied territories, control over previously surrounded settlements is being taken, Ukrainian combatants are being purged, new administrations and local police forces are being created. The payment of salaries and the distribution of humanitarian aid have begun. In general, work is underway to create a relatively safe rear.

Propaganda? Certainly. But why is one propaganda better than another? The truth is always somewhere in the middle. We'll find out after the war.

By the way, it is not difficult to establish the real figures of Russian losses, if desired. Obituaries for the dead are regularly published online. Nobody prevents this.

vk.com/operation.z2022

link

link

I think it is very hard to determine that. You can't trust the figures coming from anywhere. Russians, Ukrainians, Western and non Western reports are agenda driven. Go back to reports of casualties as reported by Czarist Russia in WW1 and those of the Soviets in WW2 for examples. Do the reports in Russia even consider casualties of Chechnyian and other non ethnic Russians?

Some stupid question. About 120 different nationalities live in Russia. And all of them are full-fledged citizens of the country, enjoying absolutely equal rights. For example, Minister of Defense Shoigu is a Buryat by nationality. And the deputy commander of the Black Sea Fleet, who recently died in Mariupol, is a Ukrainian. In Russia, nationalism, including Russian, is banned. We are a multinational people.
Here is a report on the central state Russian television channel about two Chechen military policemen who died in Ukraine:

youtu.be/vf5DRGfWJFc

Cuprum2

keep these coming. There are useful to have a more balanced view with more info.

It is difficult to trust any source in times of conflict but two sources is better than one.

I have no interest in taking any side in this conflict and I really hope Ukrainians and Russians stop killing each others.

Sorry it was all Russian to me. 😉

So what is the current count from official Russian sources? Broken down by ethnicity? I know what the Ukrainian count is and the UN count. We can take all 3 and probably the UN is closest to true.

So I will now be serious. What is the true objective of Putin? We can discount what he says. What do you "truly" believe?

Prevent the Ukraine joining NATO? Ok, I can understand that. Making Ukraine part of NATO is and was a stupid idea, propagated by stupid people. I have given my view of bringing countries bordering Russia into NATO before this war Started.

Save the Ukraine from Nazism? Come on! Let's not go that route. That is just a ridiculous excuse. Even if they were, they could not pose a threat to Russia. Also would never had gotten into NATO.

Free the poor oppressed Donbas region? Again come on! They are just as guilty of attacking the other Ukrainians as that side has them. That is simply an excuse for a land grab, just like the Crimea.

I am at a loss for any other reasons.

So the only legitimate reason I see is NATO. Wasn't there a better way to handle this? What has been accomplished? Thousands of dead and wounded on both sides. The destruction of Ukrainian cities and towns. The alienation of the majority of the world. The eternal hate of the majority of the Ukrainian people. The rearming and unification of NATO. More countries wanting to join NATO. The world closer to Nuclear annihilation then any time since the 60's.

I think the real reason lies strictly with Putin. All this because of one man. Sort of like so many other major wars.

I will not discuss politics. We have done this many times. And still everyone will have their own opinion.
I will speak only of facts known to me, or of what appears to me to be facts. If you are interested in a view from Russia on some issue – ask.

And I prefer to talk about uniforms, vehicle paint, unit organization, tactics, and so on.

I think I just did ask a view from Russia, other then the "official" view. I've asked for the "individual" view. I have given mine on many threads about my perspective of the US stance and how I feel about it. I just stated how I felt about the NATO expansion.

The discussion about any current war is always political. It cannot help but be that. Politics cause all wars.

That leaves discussions on weapons and things related to weapons only and there are way too many tech sites to get more and better qualified information from.

You really cannot even discuss tactics and strategy of the war without getting into the politics of the leaders.

This war hits a raw nerve with me. It is and was very unnecessary and brought on by poor leadership on all sides.

But I will respect your wish not to answer.

Both forces have taken "trophies", etc. for each other. We see all the abandoned AFVs the Ukraine Forces have taken. This is nothing new in warfare.

Dragon Gunner +10 … I went to the Dragon Trainers Course when I was an LT with the 101. Again he & I share some of the same training & experiences. And yes USSR/WP ADA were priority targets to allow our air assets free reign to attack massed USSR/WP armor, etc. formations.

As he and others here have mentioned, they may be using the Javelin on targets other than AFVs. E.g. buildings/structures, entrenched positions, cargo trucks, etc. Regardless, we/NATO should keep the Ukraine Forces well supplied. I have a hard time thinking the Ukrainians are having fuel shortages ? That should be pretty easy to fix. Like S-300s, etc., NATO should be able to supply fuel, as well ? But I'm not there … so …

As far as NATO expansion, which IMO is just part of Putin's excuse for this war. He and his "retinue", staff, etc. must understand. Those former WP forces do not want to risk coming under Russia's/Putin's control again. That is why they joined NATO. With even Sweden & Finland thinking about this as well.

So IMO it appears those former WP nations "de facto voted" they don't want to vasal states, with Russian/Putin's boot on their throats. If it was such a good deal … they wouldn't have joined NATO. They know as we and the rest of NATO do. Putin is a dictator trying to reclaim the former USSR/Russian Empire. No one but Putin & his associates want that, AFAIK …

And yes, he and some of his GENs, etc. are labelled as War Criminals … I don't think that is propaganda.

Ok, so how many will Ukrainian 'businessmen' sell on the Black Market?

I don't think anyone really knows ? Does it really matter ? But as we know in a conflict/war there are always "War Profiteers", etc.

As I posted elsewhere :

War is good for business

War is bad for business

But no matter how bad it gets … someone makes a profit.

'And I prefer to talk about uniforms, vehicle paint, unit organization, tactics, and so on.'

Then PLEASE do so and stop with the agit-prop !

Goes for all in the 'discussion' !

I do not see any special anti-war protest movement in my city. A couple of inscriptions on the walls and fences – and that's it.
But in the bar I can see a lot of people raising a toast to Russian soldiers, many people stick the letter "Z" on their car.

In Russia, volunteers were allowed to join the army for the duration of the hostilities.

The sanctions did not frighten people, rather, on the contrary, the negative attitude towards the West increased, and support for Putin increased. Many entrepreneurs are curtailing their business, but many, on the contrary, are glad that Western competitors are leaving, freeing up the market. Also, the Turks and the Chinese are actively trying to occupy the niches that are being vacated in the market. All people are glad that the property of the oligarchs is confiscated in the West. The hype for withdrawing cash from bank accounts has long faded away. Prices for many imported goods rose by 10-30%. There are difficulties with sugar in stores, I don't see another shortage.

I just talked about captured Javelins and other equipment. I didn't invite anyone or anything. Didn't try to push anyone's emotions. This is not propaganda. These are facts.

Well that is a partial answer. What I garner is the majority of the Russian people support the war. They dislike their leaders, as Russians seem to always have, but their dislike and fear of the West overrides that dislike of their leadership. The mentality of "Russia against the world" still reigns. That may not be exact, but that is the interpretation that I perceive.

The fact that the Chinese have tried to fill the void does not surprise me. Depending on the Chinese is a bad venture. Beware of Chinese bearing gifts.

The Turks surprise me. Russians have never been a favorite of theirs. Reminds me of a joke a friend of mine used to say: "If Turkey attacked Russia from the rear, would Greece help?".

Accurate enough. The Cold War syndrome has not been overcome either in the West or in Russia.

We have known the Chinese for a long time – I live relatively close to the Chinese border. We already know how to deal with them :)
The Turks want money :) They sell drones to Ukrainians with one hand, and with the other they take away business in Russia from departed Western companies. The war will pass, but Turkish business will remain in Russia.

I appreciate Cuprums's perspective as well.

I think he also provides a good assessment of sanctions. Someone will fill the void. China is an obvious choice. I hadn't thought about Turkey. What about Pakistan or India?

Anyway, this thread has gone far off-topic and into the realm of politics, again.

"What is the true objective of Putin? We can discount what he says".

"I am at a loss for any other reasons".

Why not just accept what he says is the truth?

He's said that he really wants to rebuild the old Soviet Union, and he is working hard at that.

Sometimes, when people tell you what they believe and think, it is wise to accept that.

Very sad all the way around for everyone involved..

Russ Dunaway

@Tresher I understand his motives. He is a megalomaniac. But I wanted to understand if the Russian people bought into his politically stated reasons. From what I read, on the whole, they do.

It seems fairly clear what putin wants. The world must recognise Russia aa a great power. One of two superpowers, co-equal with the USA, with an unchallenged sphere of influence where the hopes and human rights of the unfortunate inhabitants are of no more importance than those of ‘ordinary' Russians.

The problem is that these fantasies of an old man bear no relationship to reality. Russia has an economy, after the recent collapse of the Ruble, about the same size as Greater London, Kent and Surrey. even before that it was barely equal to South Korea in around 11th place. They also face a population collapse – probably not helped by recent events.

A recent surprise for me was the destruction of a Russian landing ship dating back to the 60s – contemporary to HMS Fearless and Intrepid which were scrapped and replaced more than 20 years ago. Along with the stats saying that Russia has 11,000 MBTs, I think that says a lot about their actual capabilities. That 11,000 includes T55s – I guess the UK total would be a lot more impressive if we had kept all those Comets, Centurions, Chieftians and Challenger Is in a field, just in case. Whether it would actually have made a difference to the UK's combat power is another question!

This current crisis appears to be caused by yet another former Warsaw Pact / USSR member choosing a future as part of the West, Maybe I missed it but I don't see many NATO or EU members asking to become part of Russia.

For all Russia's weaknesses, the reality is that Putin controls about 6,000 nuclear weapons and I'm not sure that he still understands the difference between an existential threat to Russia and an existential threat to his personal rule.

This is one villain that James Bond missed. Putin is like a cheaper Bond villain. VladImir Putinfinger or VladImir Vladimirovich Putinfeld.

Supply in too great a quantity in too short a time, and waste tends to become a factor ….

I promised not to talk about politics. So let the American talk about it:

youtu.be/OSkpIq3T-Zc

"In the occupied territories, control over previously surrounded settlements is being taken, Ukrainian combatants are being purged, new administrations and local police forces are being created. The payment of salaries and the distribution of humanitarian aid have begun. In general, work is underway to create a relatively safe rear."

So, let me get this straight, Russia steals a sovereign nations territory, kills its people and imposes its will and takes away its democratic freedoms….but this is okay?

Thanks for that, silly me, Ukrainians must be kicking themselves they didn't invite Vlad the Failure in earlier.

So much for the 'United Nations' – just another 'League
of Nations' fiasco.

With both Russia & China being in the UN's P5 … no surprise …