"discussion of depletion of ammunition stocks" Topic

from INSTAPUNDIT:

PPARENTLY, PUTIN WASN'T THE ONLY ONE TO UNDERESTIMATE HOW WELL THE UKRAINIANS WOULD DO: Weapons for Ukraine's Fight Against Russia Flow Through Small Polish Border Towns:

Western security officials say their strategy initially envisaged equipping a nascent Ukrainian insurgency—recalling the transfer of weapons to mujahedeen fighters who defeated the Soviet Union in Afghanistan—that would employ guerrilla tactics against Russian occupiers.

Instead, because Ukraine's military has managed to keep Moscow's forces at bay in much of the country, the task has become equipping a regular army engaged in a large-scale conventional war.

"The Ukrainians are expending a lot of ordnance, and this is more than we anticipated," said a Western security official. "We are trying to step up the flow of weapons to meet that new requirement and there are constant shortages."

Ukraine says keeping the flow moving is central to its war effort. NATO allies have debated which systems would provoke an escalation from Russia, ruling out fighter jets, for example.

While U.S. and European officials said they are moving as quickly as possible, some also fear that some of the weapons systems could end up in Russian hands or circulate for years on the black market. Some European nations are reluctant to provide more arms they fear could fuel a war on the continent. And U.S. officials, in the run-up to the Feb. 24 invasion, said they didn't plan to support Ukraine with arms for a protracted period.

Plus, a wake-up call on production issues:

Before the invasion, weapons manufacturers weren't geared up to make antitank and antiaircraft arms at a wartime pace. While the U.S. had 13,000 Stingers in its stockpile before the invasion, there were no plans to produce more en masse, U.S. officials said. Militaries in Europe that have given their Stingers and antitank missiles to Ukraine now want to refill depleted stocks, creating competition for new units rolling off the assembly line.

"Ready-made stocks are not inexhaustible," said a defense contractor in Poland. "It isn't the arsenal of democracy where refrigerator plants are also making airplanes. No. There is a very limited number of production facilities. You can maybe speed up some stuff, but it's not like you can suddenly open up two or three new production lines."

Now, as the warfare appears to emulate World War II, defense contractors are racing to ramp up the supplies of antiaircraft and antitank weaponry and ammunition.

We've known for decades that in the event of a war in Europe we wouldn't have enough ordnance in stock. Now we're demonstrating that.

27Posted at 11:28 am by Glenn Reynolds

Again Russia demonstrated little expertise in many forms of military ops, Log being one of them. Of course Putin and his planners thought this would be over in 3 day or so.

Studies about a WWIII scenarios estimated in an all-out war without nukes in Europe i.e. NATO vs Russia/WP. Possibly in 3 or 4 months ammo, along with replacements of all types would be at a premium. Everybody would be short on everything.

Well there is always knives, sticks & stones …

Same thing happened in WWI with artillery ammunition. Vastly underestimated how much would be needed.

Thanks

John

All right, American Industry!! You did it before in WWII.
Show us what ya got!

Sam

This goes to show there are some people in all countries (West and otherwise) who stand to profit A LOT from war.

The good ol' destroy stockpiles and build more. Business as usual…

Bismark: yes, but let's remember the Soviet Union (with the help from the West, sure) performed one of the biggest feats in history, industry wise, and essentially outbuilt and out produced the Axis in everything… They even tore down and rebuilt entire factories when they were too close to the frontlines. I don't think an isolated Russia has that capability today, though.

with MASSIVE help from the west

The support was mostly materiel (raw and otherwise), but the massive effort itself was undertaken by the Soviet people itself. Probably the most impressive industrial feat of WW2.

All right, American Industry!! You did it before in WWII.
Show us what ya got!

With the risk that they'll outproduce the demand. And the demand is for upgraded missiles.

as opposed to Liberty ships?

There never seems to be enough ammunition and ordnance to go around when the fighting starts in earnest.

I'm just thankful that the Ukrainian military is keeping up the fight. With US operations in Afghanistan and Iraq effectively over, I was looking at taking a bath on my Raytheon and General Dynamics stock holdings.

I was looking at taking a bath on my Raytheon and General Dynamics stock holdings.

Me too … $$$

War is good for business

War is bad for business

No matter how bad it gets … someone makes a profit

There is nothing wrong with profit off of war or death. The mortician does not work for free in war or peace, neither do most doctors.

The US has had a civilian ammo shortage for 20 years and now this, no surprise, I wrote about it a long time ago, in event of a major war ammo shortages for the military.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

I disagree. I have a problem with people getting a boner when there's a war because they'll make a profit out if it. Maybe even make the war a bit worse here and there, find a reason to destroy old stockpiles in order to sell new ones, get the money rolling.

A mortician and someone who profits from war are not morally equivalent. The latter is repugnant.

As a Vet in the Infantry … FWIW I want my troops & I to have the best equipment available … which didn't always happen. Regardless, someone had to make it to be issued to us to do our jobs as soldiers.

If this does not happen … that is repugnant, IMO …

Again,

War is good for business

War is bad for business

No matter how bad it gets … someone makes a profit

Like you say, Legion, somebody always makes a profit. If you
look back to during the Vietnam War, our economy was great.
War ends, comes 1975 and a recession.
On the earlier comment about over production. I remember
during one of our earlier middle east conflicts, talking with a guy
who worked for Raytheon. I said they must be running production on overtime to keep up with the use of the missiles. He replied, no, they are using up old stock,
company actually was having layoffs and even shutting
production in some facilities.

I agree as a soldier you want the best weapons available, that was not my point.

My point is that the people and businesses who profit due to war are the ones sending your soldiers to die. They are manufacturing conflicts (or at least fanning the flames) in order to destroy stockpiles and build new ones, because business is business.

Should you find lack of weapons repugnant if you're in a war. I dunno if "repugnant", but certainly undesirable.

What IS repugnant is people sending YOU to war because it will make them money. Repugnant and immoral.

The old essay "War is a Racket" is now more current than ever.

Give them the artillery and rocket artillery they've been asking for. Shells for artillery pieces are cheap and plentiful.

so long as they dont leave our own guys short of ammo

Like you say, Legion, somebody always makes a profit. If you
look back to during the Vietnam War, our economy was great.
War ends, comes 1975 and a recession.

Very true, as Ike said, "beware of the military/industrial complex" …

Should you find lack of weapons repugnant if you're in a war. I dunno if "repugnant", but certainly undesirable.

Either word works IMO … I remember as a Rifle Plt Ldr & Mech Co Cdr being short equipment. But that was during the Cold War.

What IS repugnant is people sending YOU to war because it will make them money. Repugnant and immoral.

Sadly that may certainly be true. Made even more so if there is a draft.

The old essay "War is a Racket" is now more current than ever.

IIRC USMC GEN Smedley Butler wrote a book by that name in the '20s or '30s.

Give them the artillery and rocket artillery they've been asking for. Shells for artillery pieces are cheap and plentiful.

Give them everything they are asking for. Putin appears he may be "on the ropes".

so long as they dont leave our own guys short of ammo

No worries the weapons companies will just make more … They are motivated by $$$$ …

> "IIRC USMC GEN Smedley Butler wrote a book by that name in the '20s or '30s."

Yes, that's the essay and book I was referring to: War is a Racket. It should be required reading by anyone interested in geopolitics and the weapons industry.