"Experts ask: Are tanks over?" Topic

…In three weeks of fighting, Russia has lost at least 270 tanks, according to the open source weapons tracking site Oryx — almost 10% of its estimated active force.

Ukraine's defense is proving so effective, in fact, that many analysts are attributing the failure of Russia's offense not only to its commanders, or to its tanks, but to the very idea of the tank itself, as a front-line weapon platform that can gain ground…

Business Insider: link

Using them without support, yes. The Russians as far as I've seen are not using any infantry to support their tanks or BMP's. They are not using smoke or arty to support their armor nor are they using gunships in top cover. If these things are done then, yes tanks are still useful.

It's called combined arms for a reason.

The Russian tanks are reportedly outpacing their infantry.

YouTube link

Says it all.

I guess they didn't pay attention to how the Marines went thru Falluja.

We discussed this already – TMP link …

Short answer – NO … As many here and elsewhere have said. E.g. the video Martian posted and other comments here. The Russian failure to demonstrate combined arms and whose overall performance is marginal at best. Anyone who takes what Russia's military is doing/operating in Ukraine, who comes up with the idea that Tanks/MBTs are no longer useful. They need to read more history and what modern mobile combined arms are. Again what you see with the Russians in Putin's War. Is not a good indicator.

Next they will say Infantry is useless because of the wide use of MGs. FALSE …

And that all you need is drones. FALSE …

I know what my Plt SGT/1SG would say about the authors of that article – Sam Fellman and Mattathias Schwartz.
"Sir, those two stupid Muth'a don't know about ! They ain't no experts …" 😁😎

Actually, "the experts" don't ask this, only amateurs and reporters who think every ground vehicle made of metal in a war zone is a tank.

I agree … Again, the media is looking for a story, even if they have to make one up or spin reality to fit their narrative etc.

As far as amateurs … well the saying goes something like … "A little knowledge is dangerous" …

Of course, we are all amateurs at something …

Russian ones are!

Tanks have been written off in the past. But let's not forget that a tank does not operate in isolation. It has to fight with the right tactics/doctrine, appropriately trained crews, infantry support, and a functional logistics tail. And let's not forget within the context of an appropriate strategy.

When I see armored columns backed up bumper to bumper, no maneuvering, lack of infantry support, poor/poor logistics support, poorly trained crews, within the context of a poor strategy the issue is not the tank.

torokchar +1

raylev +1 … Modern Mobile Combined Arm warfare/Air-Land Battle Doctrine. As we see the Russians in Putin's War lack the ability to fight combined arms, demonstrate poor training, poor motivation, poor log support, poor leadership … did I miss anything ?

Nope, but that's a lot.

"The Russian tanks are reportedly outpacing their infantry."

Mechanized infantry should be able to keep up in BTR or BMP.

I believe there will be counters created to the Javelin ATGM eventually, so no tanks won't be obsolete.

There were times in training back in the eighties where we would dismount infantry to clear off the OPFOR ATGMs before the tanks could proceed. Combined arms are a wonderful thing like the paper, rock, scissors game. The Russian are just incompetent beyond all reason…

raylev +1 They'd certainly get a "NO GO" if this was a graded FTX ! 😎

Dragon Gunner +1 Agree with all you posted. The take away :

The Russian are just incompetent beyond all reason…

👍👍

Antimissile systems are being worked on in various directions. At that point, Javelin use will be far less effective. When is the question.

As I have said before … the cycle is :

Measure – Countermeasure – Counter-counter measure. … repeat …

After the 'Nam and the Kippur war, the so called "experts" said that the age of combat aircrafts and tanks had ended, because they've found their nemesis with the missiles, as the armoured knights had before with the longbow/pike combo, and then with the black powder weapons. Naturally they were WRONG, because after all, as LEGION4 says,the cycle of Measure – Countermeasure – Counter-counter measure. … repeat … is infinite. Never understimate humanity's ingenuity, expecially when you had to kill other human beings….

Never understimate humanity's ingenuity, expecially when you had to kill other human beings….

Sad but true …

When a single infantryman can carry a 120mm smoothbore cannon, reliably engage targets at 3,000 meters, move at up to 60kph on foot, and survive shrapnel, concussion, radiation, and chemical weapons… then, yes, tanks will be obsolete. But since we don't live in the era of OGRE Battlesuit or the original Starship Troopers, no, they aren't obsolete and won't be for a very long time.

👍👍

Right, tanks' versatility is unparalled, they're an heavy armoured(sometimes too much!)gun platform, have high mobility, the only condition is never let alone, as demonstrated in this war, and before, an isolated tank is a dead one. When the M1 entered in service, in late '70s/early '80s, some "experts" complained that it would've been easily destroyed by the Uberpowerful russians because…he couldn't fight alone!Naturally these were the same guys that said that the new soviet tanks (T72 & co.)were imperforable by also the new 120mm. guns(!)

As I have said before, a weapon is only as good as the troops or crew behind it. And currently fighting combined arms, with supporting fire/arms for the Tanks & Infantry is the way to go. That being said seems the term "expert" does not mean what is used to. Appears it comes down to a SWAG – Scientific Wild As Guess …

Of course, experts' opinions do mean more than the person at the checkout counter, taking your order at BK, those elected and appointed to positions of authority, the average person in general in the USA, etc.

YouTube link

From someone who used to do it…

'The tank was a freak. The circumstances which called it into existence were exceptional and not likely to recur. If they do, they can be dealt with by other means.'
Major General Sir Louis Jackson, 1919

So or similarly murmured the experts after 1918 and 1945, after the establishment of mutual destruction by nuclear weapons, after the widespread proliferation of light anti-tank weapons for infantry, after the end of the Cold War and now with the introduction of drones, the russian brutal doltishness etc.

Somehow I have a feeling that the concept of the tank will prevail by adapting to new circumstances until human combatants no longer need relatively fast, heavily armed and armored vehicles on the battlefield.

chironex – good video from a former Tanker … As I have said many times as a former Light & Mech Infantry Ofr. The MBT/AFVs are part of the modern mobile combined arms team. Newer tech like drones just get added to the combined arms dogma. IMO coming under air support/CAS … just like Gunships.

Arjuna +1 ! 👍👍