"Are air guns viable as insurgent/post-apocalyptic weapons?" Topic

Been thinking about post-apocalyptic settings. Most have people toting normal firearms. But it seems to me there's a problem in that manufactured cartridge ammunition is going to run out at. And then it struck me that air-guns use only basic metal shapes which anyone can shape or find. There's no need for a propellant cartridge at all. And while CO2 cartridges would also run out, air-guns are made which can be charged by a pumping system, or have an integral manual pump, which would allow for a gun which can be fired almost without limit as long as one can make little metal balls (or those mushroom-shaped pellets).

I know that some air-guns can get muzzle velocities of around 1,000 fps or more, and I know BB and pellet guns are used today to hunt small game and vermin, but what about larger game like a deer? Or for defense against human threats? Would these be viable survival/military gear for post-apocalyptic or insurgent forces?

I understand that the 18th century Austrian army experimented with them.

Pikes might be effective against zombies…

Just go back to the usual musket, crossbow and bow.

I remember there being an air-powered weapon that shot ball bearings in the videogame Metro 2033, the Tihar. How much you pumped the weapon before firing affected how much damage it did. At low damage it was a nice stealth weapon but if you pumped it too much to increase its damage, the gun would start leaking air and making noise, alerting enemies nearby.

link

Viability is going to depend on caliber, muzzle velocity, and range. No one wants to be shot in the face with a BB gun or a pellet gun. A BB to the forehead will probably make someone mad, and give them a little pause, while a .17 pellet to the temple or eye could cause serious injury or death. Are you good enough to consistently take (and make) headshots? If you are operating in a cold environment, the projectile will fail to penetrate heavy coats or multiple layers of clothing. In high-stress situations, fine motor skills can deteriorate quickly so, if you have a breech-loading pellet rifle, are you really going to be able to quickly and effectively reload? I think an air rifle would be more effective in trying to keep someone's head down while you escaped, or for taking small game such as rabbits and squirrels. I would not consider it a primary combat weapon.

I think the Austrian weapon mentioned was the The Girardoni air rifle; a piece of technical genius that was well ahead of its time and as a consequence never achieved its potential given the frailty of the materials used to make it; but it was as effective as a black powder weapon and certainly could be used

Ever get shot by a full auto paintball 'gun'? It's pretty hard for most people to just stand there and take it, it hurts. It doesn't kill you though. So once their ammo hopper is empty it's time for them to run. Also it almost certainly won't stop a guy on the move.
Outside of any 'Golden BB' shot to the eye or MAYBE the temple. It's almost certainly not going to penetrate anything but a T-Shirt and do anything more than a flesh wound. While I've never been shot with a hunting pellet rifle. I have played a lot of paintball and had friends shoot me with BB guns and toy crossbows and all sorts of things that were more than toys and less than weapons. I have some scars, but no permanent injuries.

I imagine most airguns are more useful as melee weapons in a self defense roll

First of all, there is no such thing as a zombie. So let's discuss the other post apocalyptic situations.

If there is a pandemic that kills most people, but leaves infrastructure undamaged, the firearms and ammunition would be unscathed at police stations, military installations and arsenals. So you would have firepower for everyone that's left for a very very long time.

After a nuclear war, *large* military installations would probably be destroyed, but smaller installations and police stations would be left standing. So, considering the number of people that would still be left alive, there would still be plenty of firearms and ammo around.

Guns will last far longer than your lifetime if properly maintained, so there's no need to worry about running out of them. Ammunition, even now, is relatively easy to manufacture. Brass cases can be reloaded with powder, bullet heads and primers. A bullet mold and lead can be used to manufacture bullet heads, and the recipe for making gun powder can be easily found. Primers would be a bit more difficult, but i've seen people make them.

By the time that your area ran out of ammo, some enterprising person or persons will have started to make ammunition for sale, as reloading equipment is very common. I have a setup in my basement.

So you can still use pumpable air guns for small game, and bows for larger game, but you will *not* have to use them exclusively.

Parzival: Yes, air-powered guns are viable. There are professional grade air guns which are capable of working as you describe. They are expensive (>$1,000 per gun), they are not mass produced like powder burning cartridge guns used en masse by world militaries, but they do exist, and they are quite formidable, at shorter ranges.

Their muzzle velocities are surprisingly competitive with powder-burning guns. Again, their ranges are much shorter, but within their effective ranges, they are deadly. They are also not limited to the traditional air gun ammo sizes: the ones which I have see, fire .22 pellets, which is the favored caliber for mafia executions, but those are done up close and personal.

Take some time to surf the Internet. It should answer your questions fully. Cheers!

Sgt. Slag

When you say "capable of working as you describe", that means a Break Barrel air rifle that does not require a cartridge or air compression device. Correct? I took a look at YouTube and I couldn't find any Break Barrel air rifle capable of matching any standard rifle in power. I saw a Hatsan that was fairly decent, and that could fire a .30 caliber pellet at about half the power of a .32 caliber pistol cartridge, but that's all. So you have me very curious. Which Break Barrel rifle are you referring to that will fire with the power of a rifle cartridge, such as .223, 30-30, 30-06 etc.?

The Benjamin Bulldog Bullpup is well capable of taking out feral hogs.

Choctaw

It's PCP. There are *many* PCP air rifles capable of medium sized game. The OP is talking about air rifles "which can be charged by a pumping system, or have an integral manual pump, which would allow for a gun which can be fired almost without limit". Not PCP or CO2 cartridge.

Airguns are all well and good for zombie killing until you put someone's eye out.

Search using your favorite engine, outside of YouTube. I learned of them around a decade, or two, ago. Have not looked at them since. They had an integral pump system, no CO2 cartridges. Don't remember much more. Been too long.

Here is a .72 caliber air gun, link. Not sure how this gun is pressurized, but it is impressive kit! Cheers!

Sgt. Slag

I've looked and I haven't found *any* air rifle with a pump system that can fire a pellet with the force of a standard rifle cartridge.

The air rifle that you linked to is a PCP system, not any sort of pump.

Interesting discussion – and as to the durability of firearms, I can personally attest to this, when working with my police colleagues on a case where someone was killed with a rifle made in Vienna in 1895

My pump Sheridan air rifle is .20 caliber. Sends a hefty pellet down range with a fair amount of force that I would not want to be on the receiving end.

Here is another link for the strongest pump-up air rifles, with true rifled steel barrels. Sorry, did not realize the higher-end were not pump-up guns. Not really familiar with the PCP guns. Cheers!

So do all PCP rifles require an air compressor to fill them, or can they be filled by a separate manual pump? (As I said, I know very little about air guns or pumps).

Thanks to all— this has been interesting reading.

Sgt Slag

None of the rifles mentioned at the link you provided can fire a pellet at anywhere *near* the power of a standard rifle round.

Parzival

I know that the less powerful PCP air rifles, like the Benjamin Marauder, can be pumped using an air rifle pump which pumps the same way that a bicycle pump does, but I can't find any specific info on hand pumping the more powerful air rifles, like the Air Force "Texan". I'll keep looking though, as that's an excellent question.

If you would settle for small game then there's the likes of the .30 edgun leshiy 2 which is semi auto pcp. I'm an airgun shooter and been thinking about getting a .22 one. Uk legal ( without firearms licence) is limited to 12psi but it'll take way more. The .30 cal version is 740 fps in the ad i just checked.

You can refill with a hand pump.
It'll easily fit in a back pack.
Let's see pigeon…. Head.
I should think up to 50 yards one could make head shots and stop a zombie. If you could find a zombie.

I really wouldn't fancy being hit by a pellet out my current psi break open .22 air rifle. .30 at higher velocity looks to me like it'd rather more than just leave a mark on people.

You could easy carry a leshiy and another weapon like a crossbow or spear.

I've read that some of the very large caliber weapons from back in the day (early 20th century, IIRC) were quite powerful – they were about .50 cal., or so in size.

I think they were able to be charged once, and then reused much like the spring-powered PIAT was in WWII, but not 100% sure about that. You might have to re-pump/recharge them between each shot.

Small caliber (.177 and .22), single pump air rifles are rated at up to about 1,200 – 1,300 ft./sec. now, and sold over the counter (you can find those in Walmart). Not sure what power the more expensive, specialist guns have in terms of velocity, but suspect they may be even better.

These only require a single pump to charge.

Thresher01

No non-PCP air rifles have the ability to fire a pellet with the same power as a standard military or game rifle. None. Zero.

People hunt deer and wolves with these link

Well, I've seen reviews and statements about air rifles being used to take down feral hogs, for which you need a very powerful gun. So, yes, to some extent they have a power sufficient for the purpose of a military gun or game rifle— which is really the question at hand. No, perhaps you won't have the range or full-out force which a firearm can produce, but that's not actually the question I'm asking. The question I'm asking is whether or not an air-gun has the lethality to potentially be a viable weapon for defense or survivalist hunting in a post-apoc setting, and in particular whether one that doesn't require either CO2 cartridges or recharging from a powered-air pump/compressor (as opposed to a manual device, whether internal or external to the weapon) could reach a level of lethality suitable for these purposes.
Maybe one can't take down an enemy out to 1000 feet (or whatever), but it could do so out to 500 feet, which in certain combat environments would be quite effective.

Some air rifles are used for hunting big game, and they come in calibers the same, or larger than standard gun rounds.

Apparently, modern ones are charged with high pressure air – think scuba tanks, and are capable of a number of shots before having to be recharged.

Traditional firearms are generally more efficient, but there are some very powerful "air rifles" too.

Even the little .177 and .22 cal air rifles have respectable velocities rivaling those of the .22 LR round, e.g. some of the .177 are rated for 1,200 – 1,300 ft./sec., and at least one is supposedly 1,650, but the reviewer was only able to eek out about 1,300 ft./sec. for that model.

.22 air rifles are about generally less than to about 1,000 ft./sec., though a few are rated to 1,300 – 1,500 ft./sec. (claimed velocities):

link

Apparently, the higher velocity models tend to be less accurate than those of lower velocities, which I find interesting, since you'd think with a flatter trajectory they'd actually be more accurate. I suppose that is due to the very light rounds they are firing at those high velocities, making them somewhat unstable at higher speeds.

As a way of comparison, your average .22 LR round has a velocity of about 1,200+ ft./sec..

Here's a link to info on some of the big-bore air rifles used for hunting big and medium-sized game:

link

They can be used to take down deer, boar, and other game.

For the effect they give… how do they compare with crossbows, which have a comparable muscle powered energy source?

Mrinku

The OP was very clear that he was asking about air rifles/pistols that are made which can be charged by a pumping system, or have an integral manual pump, not co2 or PCP air rifles, which some have chosen to ignore, but I haven't. So, to answer your question, no air rifle or pistol that is charged by a manual integral pumping system can develop the power of a crossbow. None.

Airgun shooter here.

(1) Legal power levels vary a great deal according to country, so what you will have available varies. In many countries, airguns will only be useful for shooting small game for food. Apart from a visual threat (it can be difficult to tell whether it's a powder burner or an airgun at a distance), that's all.

(2) Airguns fall into two types. PCP (compressed air from a cylinder), and spring. In a SHTF scenario, the first will run out, so spring guns are what you need. You would need a standard calibre, either .177 or .22 to facilitate ammunition supply. Exotic calibres should be avoided.

(3) Ammunition is widely available and cheap. A tin of 500 is potentially 500 rabbits. It is simple and easy to make (albeit to a not very good quality). You would of course need to have the pellet or slug moulds beforehand as there is no way you will be able to get them after the event.

As regards crossbows, these can very good indeed, but the problem is the bolts. You need to be able to make your own to a decent standard. Any repairs to the bow will also prove difficult if not impossible.

My neighbor uses one to hunt deer. I don't hear a thing. Maybe I should get one.

Wolfhag