| rvandusen | 24 Feb 2022 1:46 p.m. PST |
In my barely educated opinion, which is worth nothing, I think this is extreme foolishness that should have gone out of fashion in 1945. Haven't the people of that general region suffered enough after two world wars and a massive civil war having been fought across their lands? Not to mention wars in adjacent area that saw youths being sent off to the meat grinders in Afghanistan and Chechnya. |
dragon6  | 24 Feb 2022 1:54 p.m. PST |
December 17, 2021 link How many have been? |
| ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 24 Feb 2022 2:30 p.m. PST |
link And this is where the overspill comes in… |
| Thresher01 | 24 Feb 2022 2:33 p.m. PST |
Nothing substantial will actually be done that will impact Russia, since we did virtually nothing after Putin seized and annexed Crimea illegally. The small Baltic states should be very worried, as they should be, since they are very vulnerable. Poland should be worried too, as perhaps East Germany, too. |
| nnascati | 24 Feb 2022 2:38 p.m. PST |
Irish Marine,
I really hope you are being sarcastic. |
| Tortorella | 24 Feb 2022 2:46 p.m. PST |
Thresher, you seem very certain, what do you think we should do? |
| Michael Farley | 24 Feb 2022 3:11 p.m. PST |
Irish Marine, Empress Miniatures are Id say the best. The Russian line would work for both sides Id think. link As for me, Ill stick to the 19th century. Now back to painting my 6mm French. |
 McKinstry  | 24 Feb 2022 3:26 p.m. PST |
Putin intensely dislikes the concept of Western democracies in general and per the Senate Intelligence committee chaired by Ron Johnson (R-WI), wants to create a fractured West. He is getting his wish with dictator fan boys admiring thuggery as strength. To that extent, he was quite favorable to 45 treating the NATO alliance as a transactional rather than a moral ideological alliance although 45 did a good job pointing out the reluctance of non-confrontational states (not former Soviet puppets) to invest properly in deterrence. Currently no US President regardless of party could/can ever justify US boots on the ground and they shouldn't however, I believe any US President will honor Article 5 of the NATO alliance and Putin knows it. Personally I have an O-3 son in 18th Airborne Corps and an O-3 Daughter-In-Law in the 82nd and under no circumstances can I see a justification for US military intervention. I did my SEA tour and my other son did his Afghan deployment and it was bad enough that we wasted our service for empty political virtue signaling. I don't need or want any other family exposure for horse manure political bull. |
| rustymusket | 24 Feb 2022 4:15 p.m. PST |
Last September I spoke with Bosnian friends who had vacationed to Germany and Bosnia for the month. They told everyone they cam into contact with was worried seriously about what Putin might do. One of them told me how she witnessed the killing of her father-in-law during the Yugoslavian break-up wars and how the whole area was continuing on edge with Putin's actions and words.
My grandmother's family came over from Slovenia in the early 1900's and I am thinking how lucky I am to be here and not there. I wonder if the unrest will ever end (peacefully)? |
| Tortorella | 24 Feb 2022 4:27 p.m. PST |
Mckinstry – thank you all for your service… and I wish the same for all our troops. Hopefully Putin will not provoke an article 5 response. |
 Legion 4 | 24 Feb 2022 4:33 p.m. PST |
I have asked here a number of times how the US military went from being "totally rebuilt" by 8/20 to being weak 18 months later. The answers usually reference woke training, or something similar, along with veiled references to POTUS, not an objective data-driven answer. A lot can happen in 18 months. Will say no more or may get DH'd … Personally I have an O-3 son in 18th Airborne Corps and an O-3 Daughter-In-Law in the 82nd and under no circumstances can I see a justification for US military intervention. I did my SEA tour and my other son did his Afghan deployment and it was bad enough that we wasted our service for empty political virtue signaling. I don't need or want any other family exposure for horse manure political bull. Thank you all for your service ! 👍👍 And yes too, too much political 🐮💩! |
| Bunkermeister | 24 Feb 2022 5:27 p.m. PST |
The US won't do anything of consequence. The Squad is already going out against sanctions that might hurt the Russian people. We did nothing to get Russia out of Crimea and we won't do anything that will get them out of Ukraine. We will put on sanctions and in a few years there will be enough exceptions, lies, deceit, and workarounds and exemptions that they will be worthless. How about ask Finland, and Sweden, Austria, Japan, and South Korea to join NATO? Maybe Australia and New Zealand too? Don't be put off by the name of the organization. If the Russians defeated NATO what would happen to those neutral European nations and those in the Pacific? How about an embargo on all Russian goods? How about kicking out all Russian citizens from the USA tomorrow? We won't do any of that. We will put a few pointless sanctions in and Ukraine will live or die by the actions of their own citizens. Very sad. Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| Irish Marine | 24 Feb 2022 5:58 p.m. PST |
No, I'm not being sarcastic, it has been an interesting conflict with lots of fighting in the early part of the conflict. Why shouldn't I want to wargame it. |
| 35thOVI | 24 Feb 2022 6:11 p.m. PST |
Subject: 'Russian warship, go  yourselves': Final words of Ukrainian border guards on Snake Island Brave Ukrainians
link |
| 35thOVI | 24 Feb 2022 6:39 p.m. PST |
In the Lounge. Thread is: "When will someone stand up to Putin" Covers the Trump remarks. |
| Tortorella | 24 Feb 2022 7:03 p.m. PST |
I agree that some of Trump's remarks yesterday were taken out of context, he was awkward for sure, but I also thought he was cautioning us in his way. But google his remarks on Ingraham last night. As I said in the lounge thread, we really should stop comparing Presidents so much and talking about weaknesses. Lets just support the troops. |
 Editor in Chief Bill  | 24 Feb 2022 7:15 p.m. PST |
Comment by sock puppet removed. |
| Grattan54 | 24 Feb 2022 7:24 p.m. PST |
One would think that the Baltic States would be safe because they are in NATO. However watching a good interview with a Russian expert who said that studies have shown Russia could over run the Baltic States in three days. If so, that would give NATO no time to respond. Once they are captured would NATO really go to war to get them back? Not so sure. |
| Michael Farley | 24 Feb 2022 7:33 p.m. PST |
WOW this is how we defend free speech.  Ya vote your way into socialism but you have to shoot your way out. |
Old Glory  | 24 Feb 2022 8:50 p.m. PST |
This should have been confronted and taken care of in 1945 !!!
Only a matter of time and now there could be extremely grave consequences for the world. Russ Dunaway |
| Michael Farley | 24 Feb 2022 9:33 p.m. PST |
Fight a war for Poland's independence, surrender Poland to the Soviet. Wamp Wamp Wamp |
| Heedless Horseman | 24 Feb 2022 9:57 p.m. PST |
Late 30s all over again.
Absolutely Imperative that UK needs massive re-armament.. but, maybe also, a rethink on how to provide personnel..a 'sea change' step may be needed. (How to fund… no idea… we have huge 'borrowing' for Covid protection, (Though, strangely, no-one ever says 'Who' we are borrowing from… or the sources for Their capital… Money does not grow on trees!). But must be done.). I firmly believe that, even after Afghanistan and Iraq, UK would endeavour to support friendly nations… but we just do not, now, have the capability to do so effectively. Sadly, Ukraine is on their own. i think that, maybe, once Putin has 'demilitarised'' pro West' region, he may consolidate HIS OWN position by withdrawing military to Separatist areas. Maybe… or not. Having heard an 'economist' indicating that some Governments may be staring to backtrack over sanctions… their having realised that economic sanctions are a Double Edged Sword… and hearing some absolute 'Waffle' from the EU… I wish Ukraine well in their troubles.
I seem to have the impression that it was the EU pushing Trade Agreements and 'influence', Eastward that started things off in Ukraine, anyway.
'Trade' has always done as much harm as Religion, historically. For Russian contributors… UK does not hate Russians… and some arguments may have 'some' validity as 'arguments'… but do NOT justify actions. Putin has 'gone off the rails', if he was ever on them.
Back to late 30s. For those dying and grieving… sorrow. |
| Dn Jackson | 25 Feb 2022 2:13 a.m. PST |
"Silurian: I have asked here a number of times how the US military went from being "totally rebuilt" by 8/20 to being weak 18 months later. The answers usually reference woke training, or something similar, along with veiled references to POTUS, not an objective data-driven answer." The US military is currently configured around fighting an insurgent enemy. For example the Marine Corps has given up their tanks. With the obvious growth of China's threats against Taiwan we should have been reorienting to conventional warfare. However, we spent 6 million man-hours this last year on diversity, equity, and inclusion training. That time could have been better used training troops to fight. We spent a lot of time and effort looking in the military for 'white supremists' which, by the current definition of the term, means anyone who isn't a believer in The 1619 Project. We have been ignoring the law and going after troops who oppose the vaccine mandates on religious grounds. In other words we've been trying to purge our military of the more 'conservative' members of the armed forces. Morale among the troops is low, they don't trust their leadership, and we haven't prepared for this kind of war. Just my thoughts off the top of my head. |
| Editor in Chief Bill | 25 Feb 2022 3:41 a.m. PST |
Comment by sock puppet removed. WOW this is how we defend free speech.
Michael, you misunderstand. Comments by sock puppet accounts are always removed when detected, regardless of content. Banned members are not allowed to troll the forum. |
| oldnorthstate | 25 Feb 2022 5:03 a.m. PST |
As far as Trump confronting Putin, the real issue is that Trump confronted our NATO allies in general and Germany in particularly about their duplicitous behavior. The 2 minute video, which many of you may never have seen, tells it all. link |
| John Armatys | 25 Feb 2022 5:18 a.m. PST |
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| Legion 4 | 25 Feb 2022 6:09 a.m. PST |
Comments by sock puppet accounts are always removed when detected, regardless of content. Banned members are not allowed to troll the forum. These morons need to get a life … confronted our NATO allies in general and Germany in particularly about their duplicitous behavior. Somethings they didn't want to hear … |
| Legion 4 | 25 Feb 2022 6:15 a.m. PST |
Something "horrific" I just saw on the news. According to this report. The Russian Army has mobile crematoriums to cremate their losses. As the strong protests by the mothers of sons killed in A'stan helped push the USSR gov't decide to pull out of that war. I saw the footage … this should be a war crime if this is true. And I don't doubt … Looks like according to intel the Russians did not make their first Day's objectives. By the Ukraine forces on 3 of the 4 axis of advance held up the Russians. Today that held up the 4 axis. However, looks like the Russians have entered Kyiv. Will there be a MOUT and partisan battle ? Also some US GENs believe the Russian first strikes with air, missiles, etc., assets on Day 1 was not strong enough. Giving the Ukrainians many of their own assets to still be used, fortunately. A tactical error on Russia's part. Looks like they underestimated the Ukrainians' will to fight, etc. But sadly eventually the Ukraine will yield to Russian numbers. Will the Russians have the logistics to support this operation ? As it 70-80% of the entire Russian forces. Putin even took troops from their border with China. No surprise Xi & Putin are "allies". Along with Iran who both supports. The new Axis Powers – Russia, PRC & Iran … It would be a great turn of events if the Russian population, whom many don't support this war. Threw Putin & is ilk out of the gov't. And started over. But this is Putin's Russia. Footage of Russian LEOs roughly handling protestors yesterday makes any real movement to get rid of Putin et al. is very, very, small AFAIK. Again … this is Putin's Russia … |
| Skinflint Games | 25 Feb 2022 6:47 a.m. PST |
youtube.com/watch?v=7nKvym5jmj8 Fascinating little video drawing focus to the demographic & geographic context which the MSM doesn't really mention – provides a good indicator of why he jumped when he did. My question still stands though – what's he going to do with it when he's got it? Did he really look at the last 20 years of us in A'stan & Iraq (never mind the Soviet era intervention) and think he fancied a piece of that action? Or did he swagger on in with the vague assumption that everything will be fine.. like our leaders did in Iraq… |
| Skinflint Games | 25 Feb 2022 6:56 a.m. PST |
Oh, and does anyone know how long it would have been before Nord Stream 2 was up and running? |
| SBminisguy | 25 Feb 2022 7:06 a.m. PST |
After watching Biden's press con about Ukraine, and then seeing what actually happened -- Germany is in charge of the Ukraine-Russia response. *Germany blocked action using SWIFT sanctions and by action is leading the sanctions regime *Germany has blocked the transfer of NATO assets from other states to Ukraine Germany and Russia…the US leading?? Not so much… |
| mad monkey 1 | 25 Feb 2022 7:16 a.m. PST |
Strategy page rundown on the present crisis:
link |
| shadoe01 | 25 Feb 2022 7:33 a.m. PST |
@Skinflint Games, thanks for the video. Probably the most insightful thing I've seen in the last couple of days. |
| Legion 4 | 25 Feb 2022 7:44 a.m. PST |
Excellent article Mad Monkey 1. Recommended reading, IMO … Video is excellent as well Skinflint. And it was at my old Alma Matre – FT. Benning, GA ! The Squad is already going out against sanctions that might hurt the Russian people. Really ? Someone has to explain to them what is going on in the world. They may not believe or agree with it … but … ? |
| 35thOVI | 25 Feb 2022 7:54 a.m. PST |
Subject: HORRIFIC VIDEO Shows Russian Tanks Advancing Through Northern District of Kiev – Rolling Over a Vehicle with a Man Inside
link Subject: Shocking Footage: Russian Tank Crushes Civilian Car With Driver Still Inside | The Daily Wire
link |
| ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 25 Feb 2022 8:19 a.m. PST |
Something "horrific" I just saw on the news. According to this report. The Russian Army has mobile crematoriums to cremate their losses. As the strong protests by the mothers of sons killed in A'stan helped push the USSR gov't decide to pull out of that war. I saw the footage … this should be a war crime if this is true. And I don't doubt … Rather suggests his true fear is his own population – rather vanilla dictator behaviour. He's also asking Ukrainian's to turn on their government, part of the theatre (he can't believe they will), or are things not going quite to plan? |
| Tortorella | 25 Feb 2022 8:21 a.m. PST |
Skinflint, very interesting video. A whole different way to see this. I had no idea the Russian population had begun to fall so much. Or how much of the land in Russia and China is a problem for their futures. In the west we forget how much food and agriculture matters because we have so many advantages. It sounds possible that this war may reduce the supply of potash for fertilizer for China. And while Putin may finish restoring the old Soviet defensive barriers, he does not have enough resources to maintain a large military. China will lose by supporting a failing state over time. All new food for thought, whether you agree or not. Much thanks. |
| ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 25 Feb 2022 8:24 a.m. PST |
Apparently Russia has cut a wheat deal with China, along side the oil and gas, I wonder if he's banking on fulfilling some of that deal from annexed Ukrainian farmland? |
| SBminisguy | 25 Feb 2022 8:56 a.m. PST |
Interesting if true -- at least two Ukrainian MOD info releases that captured Russian troops from different units were not told they were going to war. 1. According to some captured Russian soldiers from the 11th Guards Air Assault Brigade, they were not told they would be attacking Ukraine. They believed that they were on a training mission in Crimea but were dropped in Ukraine. 2. Another captured Russian soldier said his unit was tasked to patrol the border to collect information, but then were ordered into Ukraine, and didn't know they were part of an invasion. So did Putin have to fool some of his own troops into attacking? Combined with spontaneous peace protests in major Russian cities, is Putin in a weak internal position inside the regime?? What would it take to topple him? |
| Striker | 25 Feb 2022 9:29 a.m. PST |
Oh, and does anyone know how long it would have been before Nord Stream 2 was up and running? From what I heard, it may have been DW or some other news network, what Nord Stream needed was some kind of admin approval vs construction. The interviewee's answer was like "it can just be turned on" or some such. I thought it was being built so when I heard it his answer surprised me. Now this could have been someone talking out their bums. link Pipeline construction was initially suspended in December
2019, after the passage of U.S. legislation establishing new
sanctions related to the pipeline, but resumed one year later.
Despite subsequent U.S. sanctions on 25 Russian-related
entities and vessels, Gazprom announced in September
2021 that it had completed pipeline construction. Additional
steps, including certification by German authorities, are
required before the pipeline can transport gas. In November
2021, Germany's energy regulator announced it was
suspending the certification process pending establishment
of a subsidiary to run the pipeline on German territory.
Barring additional delays, analysts expect certification
could be completed between March and June 2022. Something else, remember all the migrants being shuttled by Belarus? Now the NATO states are going to have to deal with Ukrainian refugees until they can go back. Does that put certain countries in a position where they'll let Putin take his pieces of Ukraine in order to be able to call the fighting over and start pushing back on refugees? |
 Silurian | 25 Feb 2022 9:33 a.m. PST |
If you're on Instagram, "Battles.and.Beers" (note the periods) has a constant stream of reports from soldiers on the front line. Very real and personal. |
| ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 25 Feb 2022 9:38 a.m. PST |
1. According to some captured Russian soldiers from the 11th Guards Air Assault Brigade, they were not told they would be attacking Ukraine. They believed that they were on a training mission in Crimea but were dropped in Ukraine. At least one former British General suggested the parachute drop was militarily unnecessary and was all about the the theatre. I know personnel aren't always told the specifics of combat operations, but not being told you're dropping into a combat situation? I know historically Russia has been cavalier with its troops, but this seems particularly mad, also rather weird as from what I've read the airborne units are some the best. Are there worries about the reliability of the troops? I would have though adding disgruntled veterans to his list of internal opponents wouldn't be smart move! |
| Striker | 25 Feb 2022 9:53 a.m. PST |
Would they have given up the plan on social media? |
| 35thOVI | 25 Feb 2022 10:13 a.m. PST |
Subject: BREAKING: NATO Tank Convoy Headed to Russian Border Country Estonia (VIDEO)
link |
| ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 25 Feb 2022 10:37 a.m. PST |
Would they have given up the plan on social media? Russian army is mostly professional these days and airborne supposedly among the best units and I would have thought that possibility wouldn't have precluded telling them once they were past the no go line. IF completely accurate making your para's jump unawares into a combat zone seems rather 'murderous'? |
| Tortorella | 25 Feb 2022 10:50 a.m. PST |
ROU – between Russia and China, they are not in a great position regarding usable land and food per the Skinflint video. Ukraine is important both for wheat and potash for fertilizer. Even then, it will not be enough for all of their needs. The presenter has demonstrated his view of the economic realities facing Russia and China. |
| Tortorella | 25 Feb 2022 11:00 a.m. PST |
Mad Monkey – thanks very much for the link -they are wargamers!! And I love facts, always on the lookout. |
| Skinflint Games | 25 Feb 2022 12:52 p.m. PST |
Cheers Striker, it got me wondering why he hadn't waited for Nordstream 2 to be activated before jumping into an invasion… presumably once that was firmly embedded into European energy supplies he could pretty much take what he wanted after making us (Brit speaking here) dependent on Russian gas. Now I'm wondering if that would have taken too long against the demographic time bomb he's facing and he decided to use his military while he still has one… Yeah, I Found that video fascinating, watched quite a few – in one of them Zeihan says that the Russian Army has no night-fighting capability though, and that doesn't ring true.. anyone with military experience care to weigh in on this? |
| Striker | 25 Feb 2022 1:01 p.m. PST |
|
| Striker | 25 Feb 2022 1:06 p.m. PST |
One thing I'm curious about is MOUT ops in Ukraine. I just finished reading a RAND report of Grozny and from that urban ops were something to be avoided (1st time in) and then they tried some training but not much (2nd time). It was stated that they took all the WWII lessons and ignored them from 1960 onward. |
