"Der Spiegel: NATO deceived Russia" Topic

Dal Gavan let, but now there is no place for hypocrisy. Russia, in one way or another, yielded to the demands and interests of the West for thirty years. But the more concessions there were, the greater the demands became. Now either Russia's interests will be heard and the search for mutually acceptable compromises will finally begin, or let disputes be settled by force. And we are not talking about Russia's territorial claims to its neighbors – we are talking about the non-progression of anti-Russian military blocs to the borders of Russia.

The policy of the West has degenerated and is no longer able to calculate the consequences of its own actions. Read a 1998 interview with a Cold War professional who already then foresaw the consequences of these steps – perhaps it will be of interest to someone:
link

As for China, a serious war has never come from China to Russia in history, but from Europe – many times. So what is the real threat?

"As for China, a serious war has never come from China to Russia in history, but from Europe – many times. So what is the real threat?"

It is because Russians took the war to China, as well as to Europe, but Chinese were too weak to answer like Europeans. Now the situation changes, Chinese are strong enough to liberate their territories, occupied by Russians.

Which Chinese occupied territories

City Haishenwai (Vladivostok) for example.
But better to look some Chinese educational maps.
First one what Google shows to me looks like this..

I asked this question before on another thread. Would those advocating invasion of the Ukraine or those saying defend Ukraine, be willing to go themselves to fight? Send your children or grandchildren to fight?

Who makes up the Russian divisions on the Ukrainian boarder? Are they actual full Russians, or made up of what the Russian leadership deems as less "desirable" Individuals? Does anyone know? Just curious? They had a tendency to do this in WW2. How many of the top Oligarchy are on the lines? Their children and grandchildren?

I will trumpet this again. Beware the Chinese!!!

I will put this in terms of TMP. Putin is Saruman. Xi is Sauron. Saruman might think he is in charge and Sauron's equal, but it is an illusion.

It is better to fight in front of your borders than inside them.

The modern Russian army for 58% consists of professional soldiers hired under the contract. Military service is their job.
Conscripts serve for a period of 1 year to receive a military specialty and will be involved in hostilities only as a last resort.

The grandchildren of the oligarchs are in London. Money bags will never defend their country (rare exceptions do not count). Money has no country. But here we are not talking about a war for the sake of someone's profits, but about stopping a new invasion of Russia.

The Chinese are definitely a problem. But the enemy of my enemy is already an ally. Moreover, it is the United States that has designated Russia as its enemy No. 1. It is not China that is pressing on Russia, it is the West that is pressing on Russia. And China can now easily get everything it needs from Russia, because it has no anti-Russian sanctions.

Perun Gromovnik – Taiwan

Caprum2, do Russians really believe that any of the large Western powers want to invade Russia? Why? What does it possibly have that would justify the loss of life and nuclear holocaust? Your major resource is oil. Even if a conventional war, that oil would be drained just to keep vehicles running.

Let me point out at the start that I am not advocating a solution, just explaining the nature of the problem that most Americans overlook. Despite the belief by some on the left that the U.S. is a racist nation, the fact is American nationalism has been based largely on a common set of beliefs enumerated in our founding documents -- the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution (particularly the first 10 Amendments) -- and is not a "blood and soil" style of nationalism. That said, in most of the rest of the world, nationalism is tied to "blood and soil." Peace in Europe, for example, has existed in Europe for the last 70 years in part because after WWII, populations were relocated in a manner that separated people with different nationalist aims. In the one place where this did not take place (Yugoslavia) violence broke out again in the early 1990s and did not end until regions that differed ethnically separated from one another. In the one area that remains ethnically diverse (Bosnia) peace keepers still remain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Althea).

Ukraine is a place where you have two ethnic groups with very different nationalist interest. I am not taking the side of the Russians or the Ukrainians. I am not saying that the Ukrainians do not have legitimate reasons to fear or hate the Russians; nor am I saying that ethnically Russian populations have no reason to fear being part of an ethnically Ukrainian majority state. I am just saying that Americans, whose understanding of nationalism is not based on the concept of blood and soil, have a difficult time understanding the nature of the problem in Ukraine. Consider for a moment how our assumption that other peoples have the same notions of nationalism that we have (one that assumes that nationalism is based on a system of common laws and beliefs -- as we have traditionally had in the U.S.) have impacted our policy decisions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. Do we really want to repeat this mistake in other parts of the world. As I have said previously, I am willing to support military actions in defense of our NATO allies against Russian aggression (should the Russians have such ambitions), but we should be careful before we intervene in every ethnic conflict around the globe. If we are really interested in standing up for the interest of the United States, perhaps we should begin by defending our own borders better.

Kevin, I agree. I don't even believe in outdated permanent alliances. They lead to nothing but world wars. Look at WW1 and WW2. Where in both cases in Europe, did they start? Central Europe. Without alliances, you have options.

IMO you really can't trust much that comes from the media without checking. And even then, it might be wrong ?

Anything Putin, Xi, etc., say should be strongly suspect. More propaganda than anything else.

Cuprum2:

Dal Gavan let, but now there is no place for hypocrisy.

What hypocrisy? I've said on these boards, many times, that the "Western Nations" and NATO were pushing too hard against Russia and that the Five Eyes, in particular, seemed to be stuck with a Cold War mentality, when we should be trying to work with Russia, not build a new Iron Curtain on the Russian border. By the same token any aggression by Russia- and moving into Ukraine was an aggressive move- was going to make matters worse.

Political stupidity and an outdated Cold War mentality in the West does not give Russia the right to invade Ukrainian provinces. Nor is it the first Russian "incursion". The West pretty much ignored Georgia, Chechnya and the Crimea (apart from politician's yarping on)because they weren't in Europe (and I think because the West was too busy trying to sort out the failures they'd made in Iraq and Afghanistan). By invading parts of the Ukraine- regardless of whether the areas invaded think they are Ukrainian or Russian- Putin is threatening Europe.

That's just playing into the hands of the Cold War hawks, who never stopped seeing Russia as the USSR and as a threat, and pushing the world closer to a major war. A war that neither NATO or Russia can "win", but the PRC certainly will.

As for China, a serious war has never come from China to Russia in history,

Mongols, Tartars, Khazaks, Turks, etc- so there's never been a threat/trouble from the east? Not even in 1969?

Legion, how are Putin and Xi really different from any Western politician? There's none of them as trustworthy as a maddened snake. And there's as much propaganda in Western news sources as anywhere else.

I understand what you are talking about. But for thirty years NATO has been advancing towards the borders of Russia. If Ukraine joins NATO, how long will it take for NATO missiles and planes to attack Moscow and the Urals? A matter of minutes. Russia will not have a minimum time to repel or weaken the attack. This is unacceptable.

Conflicts with China in the 70s were associated with the presence of disputed territories. Once upon a time, the boundaries were defined in agreements between Russia and China on the main riverbeds in these regions, but over 200-300 years the rivers have changed their channels. There was a basis for various interpretations of these treaties. All disputes have now been settled.

Tatars and descendants of the Khazars have been Russian citizens for several centuries. The Mongols can hardly pose a threat to anyone now. And Turkey is a NATO country.

35thOVI You really don't understand that Russia is much more interesting to the West, being fragmented into many small ones states (like Yugoslavia) in conflict with each other? No nuclear weapons, no sovereignty, and no serious self-interest. Just a silent source of resources…

Caprum2. We have no interest in Russia. What would we do with it? We don't need your resources, our leadership won't even use ours. I said before Russia is paranoid. Some justified, some not justified. Do you understand why neighboring countries are as paranoid of you?

You say you fear missiles from NATO, better you fear them from China. The Chinese think long term. The Chinese never forget a slight and Russia has slighted them. China likes no one but China.

I do not believe NATO should expand, never thought they should have expanded more and to be honest it has outlived its usefulness. But that is not why Putin is going into the Ukraine. Take the dark glasses off and really analyze your current leader and ask yourself, what is his real motivations and who do they really benefit. Trust me it isn't for you. I have no illusions about our current leaders.

I was wrong. Russia attacked Ukraine.
I consider this a big mistake, and the potential for negotiations has not been exhausted to the end.

Caprum2 is there any talk in your country about the stability of Putin? I know that is probably dangerous to speculate out load.

Maybe now, our leaders will stop throwing money away on worthless new vote buying social programs, and vote buying green programs and do what they should do, put that money into new development, maintenance and expansion of our military. Get rid of PC officers and get real military people back in. Put our manufacturing back in our country, where it can be protected and not nationalized by foreign countries. Maybe pigs will fly. 😡

Putin has done everything he has said he would do so far, Georgia, Crimea, now Ukraine. Maybe we should take his words seriously. He has also has talked about Poland and Lithuania and their ties to the Ukraine. Is that his next move?

Having Poland and Lithuania in NATO gives us no options. I hate that. One should never box yourself in, with no real options. Does NATO start moving real divisions into both, not just token forces. Are we ready for WW3? With them in NATO, have we not emulated the same situations that started the previous world wars?

Where is James Bond when you need him and a quick end to a mad man? 😢

Subject: BREAKING: Xi Is On the Move -- Taiwan Defense Ministry Says 9 Chinese Aircraft Have Entered its Air Defense Zone on Thursday Morning


link

Legion, how are Putin and Xi really different from any Western politician? There's none of them as trustworthy as a maddened snake. And there's as much propaganda in Western news sources as anywhere else.

Generally you are correct … Especially now, in the USA, IMO, as elsewhere in the world. The new normal ? Or much of the same …

Maybe now, our leaders will stop throwing money away on worthless new vote buying social programs, and vote buying green programs and do what they should do, put that money into new development, maintenance and expansion of our military. Get rid of PC officers and get real military people back in.

Maybe in the near future ? But much of the damage may already be done… sadly … At this point it appears Putin will have Ukraine, regardless.

Cupram:

If Ukraine joins NATO, how long will it take for NATO missiles and planes to attack Moscow and the Urals? A matter of minutes. Russia will not have a minimum time to repel or weaken the attack. This is unacceptable.

I agree. It's one of the main reasons Ukraine has been invaded. People should never underestimate the stupidity of politicians and their diplomats.

35thOVI- good points, especially about Lithuania. As for Mr Bond, he's probably in someone's bed, somewhere. Priorities, old boy- who would you prefer to be dealing with, Uncle Vlad or Ana de Armas?

Maybe the Russian mafia will take him out if they start losing money. "Mr. Putin there is a Boris Luca Brasi here to see you. He said something about you being tired and fishes sleeping. I didn't understand him. Sir why are you turning white!."

Dal Gavan: "I agree. It's one of the main reasons Ukraine has been invaded. People should never underestimate the stupidity of politicians and their diplomats."

You mean – stupidity of Putin?
Because "reasons" from Cuprum are false ones.
From here (NATO member Estonia) NATO missiles can fly to Petersbourg and Moscow faster than from Ukraine and this is not a problem. Because NATO don't do this.

The real reason is – when Ukraine is in NATO, muscovites can no longer invade to Ukraine like they did in today's morning. It was their last chance, for what they prepared all their economy and fascist state for decades.

There were no chance not to start war, so long and totally prepared one, otherwise this state will be without the reason of existence and collapses. And terrible end is better than endless horror.

It has become patently obvious that Putin views himself as the next Peter the Great, "Putin the Great". But like the guys who buy the big muscle cars to compensate for a possible inadequacy. We shall remember him as Peter the Small.

Actually Putin hate Peter I. Even 300 anniversary of Russian Empire, created by Peter, was not mentioned on last year.

Did you know what Putin's name Vladimir mean in translation? World Ruler.

No I did not know that, thanks.

Also I am afraid my joke may only be apparent to those who speak English as a primary language and understand the double entendre of "Peter". 😉

It is probably the same as "Little Willy"? ;-)

By the way, did you know in whose honor St. Petersburg is named?
Russians don't like the answer.. ;-)

Bingo!

Ok I'll bite. 🙂 I thought it was Peter the Great.

Peter the Great wasn't Saint. :-)
St. Petersburg was named by St. Peter, the first Pope of Rome.
But Russians are Orthodox..

Ok thanks. Yes Peter for sure was NO saint. 😉

People should never underestimate the stupidity of politicians and their diplomats.

Amen !

35thOVI, I would characterize the situation as rather weak support for Putin and actions in Ukraine. There were small anti-war rallies, but they cannot be called significant. Too few people sympathize with the Ukrainian government because of its outright Russophobia and years of oppression of the Russian-speaking population.
People are seriously afraid of a big war with the use of weapons of mass destruction.

There is very little real information in the media. There is very little video from the scene, which is surprising. There are no photos of destroyed equipment, battlefields. Eyewitnesses film only rocket explosions at military facilities and marching columns of Russian equipment. There is a video of a column of Ukrainian (?) tanks, some of which were destroyed, and most were abandoned by their crews. They just stand on the highway.

Russians are warmongers, true, small anti-war rallies confirm this. Only a few want peace and even less dare to go outside and speak about this. There are no freedom of speech and demonstration, this is fascist regime in Moscow.

They call independent freedom loving Ukrainians Russophobes and want to kill them all, naming their own hate and deathwish to brotherly love. Completely brainless.

I'm watching every day typical conversations between Ukrainians and Rossians:

R: You are our brothers, we all are the same nation, join us.
U: Why you come then with war to us?
R: It is all Americans and NATO's fault, they come to divide us, better surrender to us, we are brothers.
U: No, they come to defend us from you. Let us alone, we want to live in peace.
R: You #ucking Russophobes bastards! You all must die!!! We kill your all!!! We come and rape you!!! We are great, we nuke the World, everybody must fear us!

There are three options now for next:
1. Putin uses nukes or blow up Chernobyl.
2. The insider kills Putin.
3. The West gives up.

Well , if Russia didn't want Ukraine to join NATO , they are in for a big surprise when they lose their little war

35thOVI, I wouldn't be surprised if Uncle Vlad was the capo di capo of the Russian mafia. Or an honorary member.

Unfortunately the days are gone when the "leaders" had to actually lead the troops into battle. I wonder if Putin would have started this, had he known he'd have to be in the commander's hatch of the lead AFV in the assault? I doubt it, despite his "hero he-man" photos and video clips of a few years ago.

Sho Boki:

From here (NATO member Estonia) NATO missiles can fly to Petersbourg and Moscow faster than from Ukraine and this is not a problem.

Thanks for reinforcing my point. I suspect the Russians do see a problem, even if you don't. Why should Russia trust the West/NATO more than we trust them? It's not as if our pollies and heads of state are necessarily more honest, more trustworthy or smarter than Russia's. Nor are our star-ranked officers, for that matter.

A lot of people in the West/NATO countries recognised how the expansion of NATO may make Russia feel threatened. There has been plenty of debate over whether the West/NATO risked provoking a reaction. That question has now been answered, at least, though I don't doubt other factors are also involved in Putin's decision, not just a fear of NATO on the border.

Dal Gavan: "Thanks for reinforcing my point."

Not at all. I am not reinforced your point but completely destroyed it.
Moscow fascist KGB hunta knows very well, that NATO don't touch them until they don't threaten members of NATO. But they every day try to convince their population otherwise.

Also muscovites need more and more territory and population (cannon fodder) for further aggressions. This is their doctrine and NATO prevents them from achieving it.

This is not the NATO who expanse (by annexations like Muscovy) but countries (possible victims of muscovites aggression) wanted to join with NATO. If the Russians were not so aggressively expansive, they would not even notice NATO's presence.

Switzerland are surrounded by NATO, did they see some problem?

if Russia didn't want Ukraine to join NATO

That really was just an excuse. Putin knew NATO didn't want the Ukraine to join NATO. It was just another taking point to show why he attacked Ukraine.

There it a thought that Putin actually rejuvenated NATO. With this attack on the Ukraine. It shows why NATO needs to stay strong, work together, etc. As we know we can't trust Putin.

However, the members of NATO still have some disagreements. But it is much larger with many former WP members joining NATO. With Putin's Russia now having NATO on many of his borders. He does not like that … of course …

Cap and Sho. Thanks, you give the perspectives of those in Russia and those who have been previously subjected by Russia. I believe the average Russian, like the average Estonian and the average citizen of the US, just want to go along with their daily lives. The Russian citizen is bombarded daily with the one sided media of their leadership. So what are they to believe? I believe more oppose this move than were in the streets in Russia yesterday, but fear exactly the way the government handled those protesters. At best you end up in Siberia and at worst, you get a 1 ounce lead pill. I believe every nation that has been forcibly made part of the Soviet Union, justifiably fears the Russians. Look what happened at the end of WW2 to those who the Soviets deemed as a threat to their control. Buried in fields in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia , etc..

I like many, thought this would end with Vlad the Impaler obtaining the break away areas of the Ukraine. Countries with ethnic enclaves that do not assimilate into the whole of the country, always seem to have continuous issues and maybe the best thing for the Ukraine was to lose them. But alas, that is not Vlad's intention. Now he can use that same justification for attacks on Poland, Lithuania, Estonia and any other country with a large population of Russians in it.

I fear the only solution to this, is the demise of Vlad. Either the oligarchy takes him out, one Russian as brave as the 13 Ukrainian soldiers on the Island, does it for Mother Russia, or James Bond reappears.

It is a sad day for the world.

Subject: HORRIFIC VIDEO Shows Russian Tanks Advancing Through Northern District of Kiev – Rolling Over a Vehicle with a Man Inside


link

Subject: Shocking Footage: Russian Tank Crushes Civilian Car With Driver Still Inside | The Daily Wire


link

Subject: BREAKING: NATO Tank Convoy Headed to Russian Border Country Estonia (VIDEO)


link

Not at all. I am not reinforced your point but completely destroyed it.

Switzerland not visibly worried about NATO means NATO can't be seen as a threat by Russia? Whatever you think, sunshine. At least you show some talent as a sculptor.

Legion

That really was just an excuse. Putin knew NATO didn't want the Ukraine to join NATO. It was just another taking point to show why he attacked Ukraine.

Agreed about Putin's motivation, but using NATO as the bogeyman did tap into the worries of the average Russian and gave Uncle Vlad a viable cassus bellum.

Putin was supported in moving into the "rebel" provinces to counter the NATO threat. However, as Cupram's posts showed, attacking Ukraine itself has made some Russians reconsider, enough to have protestors take to the streets. Here's hoping Putin has over-stepped the mark with the Russian people this time.

Agreed about Putin's motivation, but using NATO as the bogeyman did tap into the worries of the average Russian and gave Uncle Vlad a viable cassus bellum.

Yes, very true … and as we see many in Russia don't want the war. Also he has "revitalized" NATO … he wanted just the opposite.

attacking Ukraine itself has made some Russians reconsider, enough to have protestors take to the streets. Here's hoping Putin has over-stepped the mark with the Russian people this time.

We can hope … He is a dinosaur, literally living in the past …

Reports are he has changed and unstable ?

Yes many reports of his instability and concerns about his mental state. These are from all over, not US alone.

That would certainly explain some of his recent speeches, actions, etc.

And he has nukes … lots of them …

Dal Gavan: "Switzerland not visibly worried about NATO means NATO can't be seen as a threat by Russia? Whatever you think, sunshine. At least you show some talent as a sculptor."

Oh dear.. you care when policeman can be seen as a threat by serial killer?

Oh dear.. you care when policeman can be seen as a threat by serial killer?

What ? I'm a little slow … Explain ?

I tell slowly.
The ordinary citizen in normal country is not worried when cop keep peace and order, but the serial killer is very anxious and see cop as threat to his trade.
Like Switzerland is not worried about NATO but Rossia is.
Do we care about the murderer's (or Rossia's) dissatisfaction?
Do we want to be murdered?
There was no cop for Ukraine.

Russia sees NATO as a threat, but NATO is a defensive alliance, it is only a threat to those who plan aggression against its members.

I see Sho Boki … thank for explaining your POV. It appears Sweden and Finland may join NATO now. NATO has 30 members now.

Russia sees NATO as a threat, but NATO is a defensive alliance, it is only a threat to those who plan aggression against its members.

Yes, IIRC that is Article 5 … An attack on one is an attack on all.