"WaT vs. Tank Duel vs. Tank War vs. ?" Topic

I am familiar with the What a Tanker rules, but haven't heard of Tank Duel, or Tank War (Bolt Action supplement, apparently), but have at least heard of Tanks.

What are the differences between these various tank game rules, and which do people prefer in general, for both solo, and opponent driven games?

Any others to consider too?

I know WaT is generally a beer and pretzels style game, and not really a serious tanker simulation.

Something a bit more historically based, and "realistic" would be nice, where skill, as opposed to being at the mercy of random die rolls would be appreciated.

Would be great to have the ability to run at least a platoon per side too, for the games.

The ability to run a tank campaign would be great, if available also.

My go-to tank rules is "Hell Hath No Fury" by Two Hour Wargames. Still dice roll-based, but your tank's crew all have a part to play with specific tasks and skill rolls. You will usually play as either a TC or platoon leader. And it has a built-in campaign system, that is also fully compatible with the NUTS system.

Hmmm, looked up Tank War for Bolt Action – that looks a bit too simplistic for what I'm after.

Tank Duel looks a bit more interesting, but not sure the abstractness can be used with minis. Still, it looks a bit more like what I'm interested in. Cost seems a bit high for the limited number of vehicle sheets included with the rules though, but I get they aren't cheap to produce.

Panzer also looks interesting, though a bit more boardgamish (just invented a new term I think). Still, I like the more complex stats for armor angles. Cost is again pretty high for at least two sets required for Eastern and Western Fronts for mid-late war battles.

Tank Duel is a great game but quite abstract so I don't think it would translate to the Tabletop at all

Thresher,

If you're considering a high-fidelity tank vs. tank ruleset, then maybe the revamped/reissued TRACTICS set is something to consider?

I played TRACTICS back in the 1970s, and everything was straight-forward with the rules – just a lot of tables and procedures, especially when integrating combined-arms combat, but it all worked.

If you're wanting a solid and crunchy tankers sim system, then maybe the new TRACTICS set is on target?

combatrules.com

With small AFV numbers – your platoon(s) encounter level, the rules would work great for North Africa and on the Eastern Front, without combined-arms mixing.

Thresher01,
I was a play tester for Tank Duel. I had a low opinion of the concept until I played it. The high level of abstraction is the movement system which would be hard to translate into a miniatures game. It's a unique game but does not use miniatures. There could be other aspects of the game like the gunnery and crew activities that could be used in a mini game.

Are you still in the N. California area?

Wolfhag

We have some experience using our rules but only for Tanks only.

link

It is designed as a combined arms system but works well for AFV's only.

However it commits herasey in some eyes. Forgive me but I know not what I do! We require the turrets of the tanks to turn like the real ones, apparently this is a step too far in realism.

Also no points system as they only work for fantasy games not real world scenarios.

They commit other AFV war game crimes, like having to decide weather to be buttoned up or open topped, again how could we be so heretical as to follow the real world! Also hull and turret down are featured and used.

What you do get is a fast play, thought provoking game that educates on both the strength and weaknesses of AFV's.

Thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate them.

I already have Tractics, so that is a plus. Was just interested in looking into other options too, as most of us do.

Turret rotation IS a MUST in my book too.

Tank Duel sounded interesting due to some of their narrative writeups and the "on fire" and bailout rules, but yea, I was wondering how some of the stuff could be done, since a lot is driven by random card pulls from what I've been able to glean from the writeups.

I suspect between Tractics and the old Battleground rules, and possibly a few others, I can do what I want.

Some of the various tank options like Panzer, Tank Duel, etc. look to be pretty expensive, since you need at least two sets of them to get a lot of the vehicles for the mid-late war period, e.g. easily $125 USD+ for two, and even more if you want/need 2 – 3 supplements plus the base set.

Still interested in your rules Wolfhag, though not sure I or the local guys would want to do the second-by-second speed-play, since many of us are aging codgers (AKA dinosaurs). Might need to see if they can be played/modified for use as random activation rules for game play.

Yep, still in NorCal.

Hmm, I always play WaT for tank games, and do not dismiss it a 'Beer and Pretzels' game, we find it gives a good game- and we can rationalise why things happen easily enough. At least every tank does get a move once a turn, but in random order.

Sorry, no turning turrets for a one to one simulation. Simulation it is not, good game maybe.

I have seen it played and noted far too many rules and all the wrong ones in my opinion. One of the players said he liked the Random in it as his wife was a better player so it evened the odds, to me not a complement on the game.

Herkybird, I enjoy looking and reading about your What A Tanker games.

Games to me are presentations, and yours have a lot of fidelity.

I think visual immersion plays an important part in how players commit to a game too.

I know I play "better" if there's an interactive game board sprawled out in front of me.

Thresher, you sure your aging codgers want to do a deep dive in "rules-heavy"?

One thing I've committed to (as best as possible) with the local group is to maximize playing, and to suppress the rules-tweaking and play-testing. Us dinosaurs don't have the time to waste on 'unfulfillment' IMO.

An aside comment, I try not to do "ugly" gamimg……

……as we get old, ugly is just unavoidable, but at least I can make the game as purdy as possible. ;)

Add too many details for a simulation and you might as well leave the table top and look for a PC game.

Having said that Battleground was very detailed to the point where you only wanted a few vehicles on the table during a game.

What A Tanker gives you a good top down view and does reward good planning and tactics but if you want to model differing degrees of turret rotation they are not it. Personally I get that from PC games while we can have a quick game of WaT on a weeknight, everyone has fun and we have a few beers!

DeRuyter. personaly I ditched computor games years ago. They are shoot'em ups, single players games with AI which has none of the cunning and ingenuity of a human opponent. Each to there own.

Co-operative games generally are like club games they lack in most cases a cadere of history and tactics fans to allow the introduction of creative tactics. Nobody in such games wants to sit an do nothing in a multi player game, but that is almost always a requirement, be they on the defensive or waiting in resereve in case they are needed.

Thresher,
Still interested in your rules Wolfhag, though not sure I or the local guys would want to do the second-by-second speed-play, since many of us are aging codgers (AKA dinosaurs).

There is nothing "speedy" about the game play, it's the same as any other game. The action is parsed based on the units timing of actions based on their historical performance, not abstracted activation or initiative rules. It's Time Competitive rather than IGYG where your decisions matter more than the dice.

I have a couple of players in the Sac area helping out, play testing, and doing Zoom calls, we'd be glad to include you.

Wolfhag

Thanks Wolfhag.

I'll send you an e-mail inquiry about that.

Alas, my WiFi sucks, so I don't think Zoom will work (didn't last time I tried it), but would like to know more.

We have found that tanks-only Chain Of Command gives a better game than WOT.

Thresher01,
We'll work something out.

A friend of mine did a re-write of Tractics under the guidance of one of the original developers. I can get you a copy of that too.

Wolfhag

What A Tanker seems to give the best games if you set if in the mid-war period. The tanks are generally well armed and armored enough that you need good positioning to take someone out quickly, but everyone is still pretty susceptible to incremental damage as well.

I'm a bit confused about what appears to be the claim above that turret rotation isn't a part of WaT. It's very clearly a part of the rules, with some turrets explicitly called out as "slow" and subjected to mobility restrictions.

The game is fun, and the old tank commanders I've played with didn't hate it. They would likely agree it's no simulation, but it certainly lends itself to storytelling, trashtalking, and shooting the breeze.

I guess it really boils down to what you want from a game.

What A Tanker is good fun but not too sure about its replay value.

We played quite a bit of it when it first came out (including learning the game, obviously) but its dropped off our radar, while our interest in Chain of Command never has.

Probably a bit too low level really and not enough toys to keep interest going outside the format of Troop/Platoon v Troop/Platoon.

Just lacks variety.