"Rules recommendations for Combat Command sized forces" Topic

Folks,

I've been reading several Eastern Front books centering on the 1941-42 campaigns and a recurring theme is that the recon Battalion would be joined by a tank battalions, an Artillery battalion, some Flak & some engineers then sent off as an an advance guard or counterattack force. It occurs to me that this is the same general composition as US combat commands, UK late war Battlegroups and Soviet Forward Detachments, so might be an interesting level to game at.

So I'm looking for rules recommendations to game this sort of action, particularly for 1942 & 1944 eastern front stuff, which the following constraints:

1 – usable with 15mm Flames of War basing . I played a bunch of Flames of War for 8 or 9 years before getting burned out then turned off by the V4 reset, so ended up acquiring a significant collection in 15mm and I'd like to put it to use!

2 – handles Eastern Front actions and the changes in forces there over time well.

3 – some emphasis on Command & Control

4 – Playable by 2 players in an evening (say 4 hours max). This probably means something that has 1 stand or vehicle = 1 platoon. For Multiple player games (1 player per battalion) I think O group (and Battlefront WW2) would scale up very well, but that's not happening right now….

5 – currently available without having to haunt eBay for OOP copies, preferably in PDF.

Lol yep that's a lot! I'm getting pickier in my old age I fear… Anyway, Id be very interested in your recommendations and why you like them.

Thanks for you help!
Ed

Fistful of TOWs fits your bill perfectly. It is one of my favorite sets. Stands are platoons. The book contains army lists and data for everything from World War 1 to nearly the present day so you can use the same rules for Team Yankee.

Here is a rules summary of the 2nd edition (3rd is cleaned up, but you get the idea) I wrote:

link

Games may not finish in an evening if you overload with artillery, air support, engineers, etc. etc. But I have run quite large games (4 players per side) in about that time, including teaching the rules.

I do have a custom QRS I made which, while 4 pages, uses large type and color coding, and summarizes all the main mechanics. I also design it so unit starts are on the QRS in the appropriate sections.

Drop me an e-mail and I'll send it to you.

mark@scalecreep.com

Buy the rules at FFT3.com

They also have a free trial version.

Lastly, do NOT freak out at how long they book is. There are lots of examples, summaries, white space, and lots to cover.

This kind of post is a big reason I come to TMP. I'm just reading along, not really interested in new WW2 rule, and then someone posts something like this. I follow links and now I'm intrigued. Thinking about buying another set of WW2 rules to add to the several sets I already own.

Well done, Pyrrhic Victory and Extra Crispy!

Rules where each element is a platoon are probably best for the size of forces mentioned.
Spearhead, Blitzkrieg Commander, and Fistful of Tows all meet the requirements mentioned. Of these I prefer Fistful of Tows. The other two are less expensive. Spearhead is available at On Military Matters. Blitzkrieg Commander is from Pendraken and is still available as a PDF from Wargame Vault.

Alternatively, a set of rules where each element is a company would also work. Panzer Korps from Hoplite Research and Lightning War – Red Storm are two that I have used. Lightning War – Red Storm covers WW2 and Modern like Fistful of Tows and is free from the files section of groups.io/g/LWRS

Command Decision. You might want to stick to it the command rules of Tcs boardgames/ the Gamers.

I assume you are talking about commanding a regimental sized formation. Spearhead is probably your best bet, but this lists all the rules which allow a player to command a regiment. youtu.be/7Rz2klk5_HE

For a couple of battalions, Command Decision.

Spearhead would work but is aimed at slightly bigger battles.

Both are one base to one platoon type systems.

Thanks for the feedback! This is a tricky level of command to simulate, as part of the difference in combat power between the two sides derives from troop quality of platoons and part derives from HQ quality (the ability to ensure engagements occur with positional, situational and/or informational advantage). The ability to integrate fire planning into dynamic scheme of maneuver is also important. Figuring out how to simulate that while giving the players appropriate challenges and decisions to make is a real challenge!

Looks like we have 4 candidates, all of which have been around in some form or other for 20+ years. That means I think I know something about each of them, although that info may be based on misunderstandings, misperceptions or rely on previous editions. All of them seem to have different strengths and weaknesses, but help me make sure my understanding is accurate.

1 – Fistful of Tows

Knowledge based on – reading intro rules & TMP posts

Pros – extensive equipment lists, fast combat resolution, heavy reliance on platoon level troop quality, deterministic spotting
Cons – weak command system, limited command friction.

Overall – feels old school but in a good way, a candidate to graft HQ rules onto

2 – Blitzkrieg Commander IV

Knowledge based on – reading Blitzkrieg Commander 2, playing Warmaster

Pros – heavy emphasis on Command, interesting command mechanism, new edition out
Cons – relatively weak combat resolution, bland equipment lists, command mismatches can lead to bad games, command is all or nothing

Overall – the other side of the gaming spectrum from FFoT with most of the crunch going into the command system, but don't think it's a good simulation

3 – Spearhead

Knowledge based on – reading the rules years ago

Pros – interesting command system, ability to command larger formations, fast resolution.
Cons – no company structure, linking command capability to nationality, uber Germans

Overall – as per usual with Arty Conliffe rules, it's really interesting ideas in a package with things that drive me crazy

4 – Command Decision

Knowledge based on – playing a fair bit of 2nd & 3rd edition

Pros – separate ratings for morale & training, extensive organizational info, good combined arms modeling
Cons – individual company orders & probability based spotting slow play, weak command system, simultaneous movement

Overall – love the morale & training split but it's a solid game from 40 years ago that's showing it's age

I'm a bit disappointed that we haven't had much change over time as these 4 plus Kampfgruppe Commander seem to have it locked down.

I may need to hack things more than I wanted to…

Something else that I came across recently is Panzer Command, a boardgame from 1984.

It has some great aspects that have been copied by other games since, including MMPs Grand Tactical Series used in Devil's Cauldron.

A pdf of the rules is on BGG at link

The original game was for Eastern Front on a scale of 1 hex to 500m, 1 unit equals a Company, 1 to 2 hour turns, Div, Rgt HQs.
Combat is d10 on a simple table.

I'd recommend getting the Vassal module to get a view of the tables.

See what you think and if it appeals.

Hope this helps,

B

The old Korps Commander simulated this via command structure, which is the best way of achieving this. The German Kampfgruppe system was a philosophy which allows any troop type to work with other troop types in a combined arms form under a single command structure. This was all about training and many consider the Finnish ski troop formations another good example of this. The Americans created their own version in the Tank Divisions and in Aug/Sep and the British 7th Tank Division adopted it. Because of its success all the British tank divisions in Europe quickly adopted it.

Korps Commander simulated this by allowing you to cross attached formations, thus a Panzer Battalion and a Panzer Grenadier Battalion could be placed in the same command structure, with a commander who understood each formations strengths and weaknesses and how to make everything work together.

The Russians simulated this by always having infantry part of a tank formation, thus they achieved something similar using their organic structure. There was no flexibility in this system, which the British also tried, but it provided what was required.

In Korps Commander you were restricted in what could be organised under a single HQ, however this is a ½ company scale game, with each element representing a ½ company. It is a very complex game system, but I must admit very historically realistic and complete.

While Korps Commander did not allow cross-attachment unless the nationality had the doctrine to support it, I suppose you could do this with a command control penalty, but i am uncertain if this would be historical, except in an emergency defense situation.

PV,
Great thread as I am on my own search at the battalion level. Many of the same games have been talked about. I suspect you are going to have to mix and match to get what you want. FFTs plus command rules maybe? For battalion commander I am thinking of battlefront plus some good c+ c rules.
This is a great place with many knowledgeable people
Good luck

Joe,

Thanks a bunch! If you haven't yet, you may want to take a look at O group for Battalion level. I haven't had a chance to get it on the table yet, but really like it after the initial read through. Since the focus is on command & planning, you may be able to steal parts even if you stick with Battlefront for the combat resolution.

I'm probably going to try joining the O group command system to either FFT or a modified O group combat system and see if that works…. I'm ok with experimenting

Ed

I'm a bit disappointed that we haven't had much change over time as these 4 plus Kampfgruppe Commander seem to have it locked down.

You are correct, Combat HQ is about the most recent set of rules at this scale, first published in 2016. Even Kampfgruppen Commander first came out in 2001. I have found most of the development is occurring in other scales, either skirmish or higher scale, such as Panzer Korps, LWRS, Bob Mackenzies BBWW2B, D-Day to Berlin, Corps Level Combat Actions and Frank Chadwick's Breakthrough – which still has not been published for some reason.

Try FiveCore Brigade Commander by Ivan Sorensen. Clean and fast playing set with interesting mechanisms.

FiveCore Brigade Commander looks very interesting. Each stand is a company with platoon attachments, same scale as Panzer Korps. These look very interesting rules, but i have so many rules i have been hesitant to buy a copy. However i admit at $9.99 USD I will probably pick up a copy from wargamer vault when i swing back into micro-armour gaming.

All my gaming comrades want to play napoleonic and ancients right now.

Five Core BC is fine, but the mechanisms owe a lot to their more skirmish oriented cousins, which didn't really work for me. You will struggle to model asymmetric command systems and troop quality.

Tbh, for this level of game I ended up writing my own, bashed together from various sets (with company bases and platoon attachments).

Rapid Fire is pitched at this level too of course, as well as TAC:WW2, but I'm not sure much play the latter gets now. Very troop quality focused.

Five Core BC is fine, but the mechanisms owe a lot to their more skirmish oriented cousins

Interesting, I was looking at the company and found it puzzling they should create a one element equals one company set of rules, which basically means a unit is a battalion, when most of their games are skirmish. This reminds me a bit of Rapid Fire, which is a one element equals one platoon set of rules, using 15mm, but really feels like a one element equals one squad set of rules. Coming to think of it Rapid Fire may be a good option for Pyrrhic Victory, although I seem to remember its command and control was rather basic.

As for optimal rules, I got back into the hobby back in 2013 and spent many years looking at different sets of rules. I found the hobby is really fragmented. I ended up playing a few games of spearhead and Flames of war, but spent most of my time playing LWRS which is a surprisingly good set of rules.

I tried FFT3 when I was up in japan, but the rules are difficult to reference and you need to keep the number of elements down to have a game which completes. My opponent was a fan of big games and we never completed anything, the forces barely moved.

Panzer Korps looks very interesting, but the rules format is really hard to read and I need another player keen to learn the rules to progress. I think I will do so, but it's on the back burner right now.

Historically my main rules are Corps/Korps Commander, which are very good but far too complex for my tastes these days.
I created a quick play version, which works well and speeds up play, but its still far too complex for a quick ad-hoc 2-4 hour game. These days I need something which gives me a good game in about 4 hours on an ad-hoc basis. I never know what opponents I will find at my local club and basically play whatever they wish. As a result the rules need to be simple.

I got the idea of converting SPI Board games into a figure gaming format, Philip Sabin the creator of Lost battles gave me the idea and gave me advice to only attempt to do this with very simple game system. Philip Sabin likes hexes, which I hate for figure gaming. I converted the Modern battles quad into a hex less figure gaming format and I have to admit it works so well it's my main rules for new players these days. I also have a large number of scenarios which I can use from the board games. The only issue is I need to spend a lot of effort in recreating the playing area in a lot of detail, which I have done for two of the quad games.

This video describes the boardgame conversion process in general terms. youtu.be/BO6_tP0-xI4

pfmodel, I very much appreciate your analysis of gaming systems. However, I'm having a problem understanding what games are what when only the initials are used. I have no idea what LWRS or Bob Mackenzies BBWW2B refer to.

PV,
Thanks. I am intrigued by O group. Do you think it will work with modern ops?
PF,
I have always used hexes in my games, no problem. Speeds play. If you are looking to convert a board game consider Panzer Grenadier.

Big Red, Great question. I know most of the abbreviations but I don't know those two otherwise I would tell you what they mean!

Thanks

Joe

Joe,

I think it would work for battalion operations up through roughly 2000 when digital command & control aids really started to come on line. Post 1970 you'd have to decide how to handle ATGMs. There's a pretty extensive vehicle list that's been compiled for it, but you'd have to add stats for purely post war vehicles.

So I think it would work great for Korea, early Arab-Israeli wars and conventional fighting in Vietnam without helicopters. Later than that and you'll have to borrow or design your own additions for ATGM & Helicopters

Ed

PS – consolidate vehicle & gun list here : link

I have no idea what LWRS or Bob Mackenzies BBWW2B refer to.

My apologies,

LWRS is Lighting Wars Red Storm, the rules can be found here: groups.io/g/LWRS
The rules were written by Andrew Stevenson back in 2003/2006, or so. I think they are a scaled up quick play version of Korps Commander, or at least were influenced by those rules.

I reformatted the rules and created game aids and placed them on groups.io/g/Bewegungskrieg The rules are unchanged, but I created a number of scenarios and army lists, as well as QRS, counter sheets as well as added a lot of cross referencing and examples of play documents.

BBWW2B is Bloody Big WW2 Battles, the beta rules can be found here: groups.io/g/Grosse-Schlachten
The rules are written by Bob MacKenzie, he is currently working on them but the latest version are playable. Bob is rather helpful in answering questions when there is an issue. I think they are based on the 19C rules Bloody Big battles, as that is where I first found the rules.

Bob MacKenzie is also a prolific scenario writer for games at this scale. See his webpage here: bobmack3d.com/bob

Ed,
Thanks. I think I will have to give it a try. Good luck with your search.

Joe

I have looked long and hard for exactly what you describe and I am very happy with them. Pretty interesting C&C system as well and well supported by the author with lots of free downloads:

link

More or less same volume of units as Flames of war but different and more interactive.

Posted some comments actually in a blog:

comments
link

All Hell let loose:
link

Combat HQ:
link

Repaint,
Thanks for the tip! Combat Hq looks interesting. Already downloaded O group though. They seem to share similar order mechanics. Again thanks

Joe