"Ru. Tell us more about recruitment" Topic

areas and naming convention, not the method, but where and how the regiments are recruited and named.

Under Paul 1, there was the Potemkin reformation, then owner/ colonels names; divided by 'inspections' which are 'regional'; and then divisions which appear to follow.

However, previous experts have told us that a regiment, named for a city, isn't actually from that city. A regiment [name] is included in an inspection even though that city [name] doesn't exist there.

What we've taken for all time is that a town or county, or city name is the recruitment area. Seems this is not the case in the chaos of imperial russia.

As an example, the Moscow Musketeer regiment is in the Kiev Inspection, ie Ukraine (some irony there right now!).

No need for references to Conrad/ Viskatov/ Gingrich as these tabulate data but do not offer explanations.

Regards
dave≠

nearly 200 views and not a sound…
woof___

What more is there to say ? City (and other) names for regiments were purely honorific, with only a few excaptions (and these generally in the cavalry).

"chaos of imperial russia"
I dont think their recruiting was too chaotic. I am sure all western european and North American militaries did it much better. But the Russians did have a rather settled system of recruiting – roughly the same from the 1760's to end of the Empire.

By the way, regional divisions existed under Catherine, renamed inspections, then again divisions. Here are two excellent articles by the distinguished Mr.. Robert Goetz :
link
link

"Potemkin reformation"
Prince Grigory Aleksandrovich Potemkin-Tauricheski (1739-1791) served under Catherine. The extent of his reforms is open to debate. If anything, Paul might be said to have tried to un-make his mother's reforms and Alexander to have reinstated them. But that is a very rough generaliztion, so rough as to be arguably inaccurate outside of specific topics.

Inspections or divisions were linked to recruiting districts. For example, from 1809 the Toropets Recruit Depot served the 2nd Infantry Division. They received recruits from Tver and Vilna Governates. The 6th Infantry divison had their depot at Kargopol and recruited from Arkhangel, Vologda, and Vyatka Governates. The 7th Infantry division (including your example Moscovites) had their Recruit Depot in Bryansk in 1809 (then moved to Starodub) and recruited from Tula and Orel Governates.

The recruit depots were located in the general area where the regiments were caserned, but slightly more "interior" to the Russian heartland : 2nd Infantry division beong located in the northwest facing Courland, the 6th Infantry division in Russian-occupied Finland and the 7th Infantry division in north central Ukraine. They were also rather remote places compared to their recruited population.

Additionally the recruit depots received recruits from the nearest "Depots of the 2nd Line" located in larger population cities such as Novgorod, Tver, Moscow, Kaluga, Orel, Kursk, Kharkov, Yekaterinoslavl and Tula. And in 1811 there were "Depots of the 3rd Line" in medium sized citities such as Yaroslavl, Vladimir, Ryazan, Tambov and Voronezh.

Cavalry was similar, but with fewer depot locations.

The Inspection era was similar, but less formalized : regiments generally getting men from relatively near by (but not actually local) populations and rating them as "recruits" until "basic training" was completed.

The level of recruiting in each location was population based : x per 500 souls per year. Most years, but not all, there was a conscription. Choosing the men was very localized, run by the local government and local nobility councils, village by village. Only single "serf-class" men over 18 years pf age could be conscripted. They, and their children, thereafter became soldier-class for ever. Choosing by lot and paid replacement did not officially exist.

Upon local induction, the recruits were shaved and issued an all-grey fatigue uniform. The divisional recruit depots were manned by training detachments from the division's regiments. Upon completion of "basic training" at their divisional recruit depot, the recruits received their regular uniforms. Typically 1 year was allowed from local induction to being delivered to the regiments.

A long service conscript might survive 20-25 years to become a ditinguished "invalid" , "garrison" or "internal security" NCO, marry and raise children at a military settlement. The boys could attend a regimental school, joining the artillery, engineers or quarter-masters corps with a decent chance at a commission – or follow the father's career as a "front-line" NCO.

Artillery recruiting was based at 3 main depots and a set of major arsenals, manufactories and training establishments. It used both select conscripts and middle class (sometimes foreign) or free farmer (often Baltic) volunteers.
Same for engineering, quartermaster, topography, medical, roads & communications, field post & courrier, etc.

Cossack and Native irregular cavary served by "contracts" or treaties entered into for each Host by the ataman and/or council of hetmen.

Militia was voluntary, theorectically limited to internal service in 1 campaign and included all social classes, the serfs only with their landowners' or factory-owners' permission.

Sidenote : officer rank conferrred life nobility. The rank of infantry major conferred inheritable nobility (or, by late period, "old" guards staff-captain and artillery, engineering, quartermaster and "young" guards captain).

As to "chaos", I noted in another thread ….

By 1815, The standing Russian Army and Guard disposed of ….
--- 526 infantry battalions (2/3 heavy & 1/3 jäger) – about 400,000 combattants
--- 434 cavalry squadrons (1/2 cuirassier/gendarme/dragoon & 1/2 light) – about 75,000 combattants
--- 170 field artillery companies (roughly 33% heavy, 42% light & 25% horse – 12 pieces each) – about 50,000 men with 2050 pieces
--- 12 battalions of engineering troops & 24 pontoon trains – about 25,000 men
--- a veritable horde of Cossack and Native cavalry – roughly 100,000 horsemen available for service with the Army
--- total about 650,000 combattants
--- plus fortress/seige artillery, quatermasters, topographic, roads & communications, field-post and medical corps
--- all units essentially full strength and fully equipped (thanks to Britain for the cloth, powder and Brown Bess muskets), mostly veterans, no new conscripts since early 1813, formal regiment/brigade/division/corps/army organizations and staffs

Again, I am sure they were less competent than any European or North American military, especially the French (leaders and innovators in all things military, as we are so often instructed).

But utterly "chaotic"? Maybe not. Lots of vodka and too many bears dont cause chaos when you are used to them.

YouTube link

Lyrics
link

:-)

thanks you are a star.
I've scanned this, now I have to read and ingest…
chaos or not-----
;-)
dave

"What we've taken for all time is that a town or county, or city name is the recruitment area."

Who is this "we" of which the OP speaks? For years I had the "Africa" Regiment among my Napoleonic Spanish without any thought that they were so recruited. The same was true of my SYW Regiment de Picardie, and I knew perfectly well that British regimental names seldom lined up with recruiting districts until the Cardwell Reforms, and even then imperfectly. I never thought things were different in autocratic, but scarcely chaotic Russia. But you were calling for experts, and I am not one.

>>Who is this "we" of which the OP speaks?

The general populace of wargamers for, ohh say the last 50 years or so? Probably before, but then I'm young…

>>For years I had the "Africa" Regiment among my Napoleonic Spanish without any thought that they were so recruited.

And yet mere mortals would have said probably recruited using native/ colonial; or was it supposed to be sent there? Dunno, but off my query.

>> SYW Regiment de Picardie,

Really. You mean the prior Frenchies also cheated. QUELLE HOREUR!!!
Again, dont care as its a Russian query.

>>I knew perfectly well that British regimental names seldom lined up with recruiting districts

Congrats. Didn't read that in Osprey, Almark or Chandlers… haven't studied a Brit subject for 30 years more or less.
We may be a colonial hack but we're free of Boris!

So, we're lost then.
All over the planet and only michman has a clue. Great!

Enough for me to not worry about trying to get my cosmic alignment in order…

you know just asymetry irks you some times..???

Other times I feel superior building it in, ahh well…
cheers d

Russian divisions/inspections

--- Finland (1765)
--- St. Petersburg (1765)
--- Estonia (1765) ---> merged with Latvia in 1796
--- Latvia (1765)
--- Belorussia-Lithuania (1775) ---> re-named Lithuania (1796)
--- Smolensk (1765)
--- Moscow (1765)
--- Sevsk (1765) ---> merged with Ukraine in 1775
--- Ukraine (1765)
--- Kazan-Orenburg (1775) ---> re-named Orenburg (1796) ---> 23rd division (1808)
--- Nizhny Novgorod-Siberia (1775) ---> re-named Siberia (1796) ---> 24th division (1808)
--- Border (Novorossiya, Azov and Astrakhan) (1779) ---> re-named Caucasus (1796) ---> 19th & 20th divisions (1807)
--- Odessa (1791) ---> re-named Ekaterinoslav (1796) ---> re-named Dniester (1797)
--- Crimea (1796)
--- Brest (1800)
--- Kharkov (1800) ---> re-named Kiex (1801)

example – Army regular infantry only

I wrote before that rarely was Russian regiment naming geographic, but instead honorific. I thought I might show 6 examples named in 1796 – and trace their history a little – that are exceptions to this rule.

The Orenburg division/inspection spanned the Orenburg/Ufa and Kazan governates and the Samara "named-region". There was a substantial non-Russian population in the area : Christian (Cossack), Moslem (Tatar, Bashkir), Buddhist (Kalmyk) and Anamist (Nogai, Modvin and Chuvash).

The Siberia division/inspection started east of the Urals and on to the Pacific.

22 February 1775 : Two Siberia Field battalions are raised at Yekaterinburg and Semipalatinsk, each of 4 Musketeer companies for mobile garrison duty.
29 November 1796 : The No. 1 and No. 2 Siberia Field battalions are used to form the Tomsk Musketeer regiment, of 2 battalions, at Tomsk.

11 Septeber 1785 : Four more Siberia Field battalions are raised, each of 4 Musketeer companies, for mobile garrison duty.
29 November 1796 : These Siberia Field battalions are used to form the Yekaterinburg (ex- No. 5 & No. 6 Field battalions) and Selenginsk (ex- No. 3 & No. 4 Field battalions) Musketeer regiments, each of 2 battalions.

17 December 1784 : Six Orenburg Field battalions are raised, each of 4 Musketeer companies, for mobile garrison duty.
29 November 1796 : The Orenburg Field battalions are used to form the Butyrsk (ex- No.1 & No. 6 Field battalions), Ufa (ex- No.2 & No. 3 Field battalions) and Rylsk (ex- No. 4 & No. 5 Field battalions) Musketeer regiments, each of 2 battalions.

The Selenginsk and Tomsk Musketeers were named for towns in Siberia : examples of regiment naming co-inciding with the region of division/inspection. They were stationed at Ust-Kamenegorsk and Kolyvan, respectively, in the Siberia division/inspection.

The Yekaterinburg Musketeers were named for a city just east of the Urals : an example of regiment naming co-inciding with the region of division/inspection – and indeed stationed at Yekaterinburg, in the Orenburg division/inspection.

The Butyrsk Musketeers were re-named for the oldest infantry unit of the Russian, in existence 1642-1786. The original unit's naming is a little obscure. In the mid-1600's, a "butyrka" was a small settlement outside the walls of a city. It would appear that the regiment was named as being of/from/at such a small settlement north of Moscow where they were quartered. Today, the area is a neighborhood inside Moscow city. They were sent to the Ukraine division/inspection, stationed at Lutsk.

The Ufa Musketeers were named for the capital city of the Bashkir people : an example of regiment naming co-inciding with the region of division/inspection – and indeed stationed at Ufa.

The Rylsk Musketeers were named for a town near Kursk in southern Russia. They were stationed at Orenburg.

There were no changes through 1808 : Yekaterinburg, Ufa & Rylsk Musketeers in the Orenburg region and Selenginsk & Tomsk Musketeers in Siberia.

From 1809 to 1811 many changes effected these units as the more formalized numbered divisional system was implemented and units were moved from Orenburg and Siberia into European Russia.

By 1811, the Rylsk, Yekaterinburg and Selenginsk Infantry are in the 23rd Infantry division, recruiting depot at Yelnya near Smolensk (recruiting from the Smolensk, Vitebsk and Grodny governates), part of the 4th corps of the 1st Western army. The Ufa, Butyrsk and Tomsk Infantry are in the 24th Infantry division, recruiting depot at Novgorod-Seversk in north-central Ukraine (recruiting from the Chernigov and Kursk governates), part of the 6th corps of the 1st Western army.

At this point, all six of the regiments' names were only honorific.

‌Thats a very interesting history and variations.

On the 'Butyrsk Musketeers' regiment as an example- when you write

They were sent to the Ukraine division/inspection, stationed at Lutsk

; does this mean the regiment of men only as an active unit, or the actual depot was completely transferred across inspection lines and 're-homed'?

The only addition I could possibly request would be some indicative maps that show perhaps the inspection boundaries and named cities/ garrisons etc.

It is such a vast area and names of course don't match modern maps a lot. Thanks once again
davew

There were no depots in 1796 under the division/inspection system. Regiments got conscripts from the territory garrisoned by their division/inspection. In the example case, the Orenburg Field battalions No. 1 and No. 6 (which could have been formed anywhere in the Orenburg division/inspection in 1784 and may have been serving anywhere in the Orenburg division/inspection in 1796) were marched off as the (new) Butyrsk Muskeyeers to Lutsk in the Ukraine division/inspection. Then they would take recruits from the territory of the Ukraine division/inspection.

I have never seen maps or specific geographical descriptions for the territories of the divisions/inspections. They would mostly follow governorate boundies, but that is little help as these were rather often changing. They did *not* extend into lands granted to "free" peoples such as Cossacks, Kalmyks and Teptyars.

Let us look at the territory of the Ukraine division/inspection in 1796. This included the garrisoned locations :
--- in the Ukraine : Kovel, Kharkiv, Novohrad-Volynskyy, Zhytomyr, Mohyliv-Podilskyi, Kremenets, Kyiv, Łubne, Kamianets-Podilskyi, Starokostiantyniv, Iziaslav, Lutsk and Letychiv
--- in Russia : Orel and Kursk
That would include these governorates : Kiev, Kharkov, Kursk, Malorossiya (divided into Chernigov and Poltava in 1802), Sloboda Ukraine,, Volhynia, Podolia, Oryol and possibly Voronezh : roughly the northern half of modern Ukraine plus the southern part of western Russia.

The Volhynia-Podolia inspection existed 1798-1800. But it was for the emigré troops of the prince de Condé only (and did not recruit Russians). The large Ukraine division/inspection was split in half east/west with the creation of the Kharkov inspection in 1800 (renamed Kiev in 1801). Upon their return from the 1799 Italian campaign, the Butyrsk Musketeers were placed in the Kharkov/Kiev inspection. Here they stayed until 1805 when they served under Kutusov in the Austerlitz campaign. Upon their return, they became part of the numbered 12th division. They were transferred to the 13th division in 1809, to the 24th division in 1811, and to the 23rd division in 1819 (renumbered 14th division in 1820).

The recruit depots for numbered divisions ("trialed" in 1807, implemented from 1809), did not endure. Partly due to the invasion of 1812, many of the recruits of 1811 did not go to their intended regiments and divisions. The was no conscription in 1812 and 1813. The recruit depots were all emptied and closed by 1813.

Recognizing that the size of the Russian military would more than double since Paul's reign, and that once "soldier class" the men could not be re-made serfs, the concept of "military settlements" was trialed in 1810 and 1816 before full roll-out from 1817. The 2nd battalion of each regiment (for the infantry), would have a village and farmlands set-aside. The strongest would serve with the 2 active battalions, while the over-complement, sick, infirm, aged, children, wives and the newly-recruited (from near-by villagess and dispatched from population centers, in addition to the settlement's own young men) would live at the settlement.

Thanks, many many… thanks !

Fantastic detail and I'm getting a better understanding on the 'chaos'; orchestrated madness perhaps??

I know, I wouldn't want to organise it either, but the 'adaptations' appear to a degree logical and paced. Clearly the size of the nation simply demanded big moves and handling.

I'm taking in Mikerberidze "Russian Officer Corps…" now as well and the realities discussed there are equally amazing.
Very enlightening!

Regards
davew
≠

Dr. Mikerberidze's "Russian Officer Corps …." is excellent, as are all his works.

To fill in some details on the Butyrsk Musketters/Infantry :
--- transferred to the 13th division in 1809, stationed in the Crimea, divisional recruit depot at Ivaniv (near Vinnytska in central Ukraine)
--- transferred to the 24th Infantry division in 1811, the 1st and 3rd active battalions of the Butyrsk Infantry are part of the 6th Infantry corps of the 1st Western army & the 2nd replacement battalion is part of the Bobruysk fortress garrison (southeast of Minsk), the divisional recruit depot is at Novhorod-Siverskyi (in north-east Ukraine), recruiting from Chernigov and Kursk governorates
--- the 24th Infantry division is moved to the 3rd Infantry corps after the peace in 1814, and to the 4th Infantry corps in 1817
--- the Butyrsk Infantry is transferred to the 23rd Infantry division (renumbered 14th Infantry division in the next year) in the 5th Infantry corps in 1819
--- in January 1820, the 2nd battallion of the Butyrsk Infantry was designated for Military Settlement in Novogorod governorate

The fate of the November 1811 conscripts for the 24th Infantry division shows how the invasion disrupted the divisional recruit depot system. 3060 conscripts (average 510 per regiment) arrived at the Novhorod-Siverskyi recruit depot, commanded by Major Zhukov of the 40th Jäger, for the 24th Infantry Division. The recruits were formed into six 4th reserve/recruit battalions, 1 per regiment, with the training cadres detached from each regiment :

4th Reserve/Recruit battalion organization :
--- staff : 1 lieutenant, 1 senior NCO, 1 drummer
--- 1st Recruit company : 1 NCO, 1 gefreytor*, 12 senior soldiers, 170 recruits
--- 2nd Recruit company : 1 NCO, 1 gefreytor, 12 senior soldiers, 170 recruits
--- 3rd Recruit company : 1 NCO, 1 gefreytor, 12 senior soldiers, 170 recruits
* gefreytor = senior soldier acting as junior NCO, lance-corporal

Instead of completing their training and being sent to their regiments, the 24th Infantry division's recruits at Novhorod-Siverskyi were ordered to Kaluga in mid July (a distance of 260 English miles), arriving on 4 August. Here the 12 Recruit companies of the division's heavy infantry regiment were formed as the 2nd Reserve infantry regiment (of 3 battalions, each of 4 companies), departing on 13 August for the main army in the field, about 85 English miles away.

Arriving with the main army on 18 August, just east of Vyazma, the recruits of the 2nd Reserve infantry regiment were distributed to various units of the 2nd Western army, and the cadres from the 24th Infantry division ordered to return to Kaluga. I can't really find them arriving there later, so they may have been instead returned to the active battalions of the division.

Gee even more…

But again its becoming confusing- when you say transferred and/ or sent 'somewhere'- does that mean an academic paper transfer of authority; a physical up and move to a new location.

Again the mixture of towns/ location/ designated 'body' are becoming a blur.
Sorry to be a nuisance, you don't have to enlighten too quickly, I AM a slow learner… ;-]
dave

"transferred to the 13th division in 1809, stationed in the Crimea" : physically moved

"transferred to the 24th Infantry division in 1811 …. part of the 6th Infantry corps of the 1st Western army " : physically moved

"the 24th Infantry division is moved to the 3rd Infantry corps after the peace in 1814" : was upon return from the 1814 campaign, so "physical" by definition …. the unit was included in 1815 for Barclay de Tolly's army mobilized for the Cent Jours

"to the 4th Infantry corps in 1817" : paper transfer, unknown if they also physically moved

"the Butyrsk Infantry is transferred to the 23rd Infantry division in the 5th Infantry corps in 1819" : paper transfer, unknown if they also physically moved

"23rd Infantry division renumbered 14th Infantry division in 1820" : paper change

"in January 1820, the 2nd battallion of the Butyrsk Infantry was designated for Military Settlement in Novogorod governorate" : physical move of that battalion

=================

"Again the mixture of towns/ location/ designated 'body' are becoming a blur."
I can sure understand that. You might look up each location with google maps. I have given them above with their current (modern) place-names, rendering the Russian or Ukrainian in Latin characters per google's usage.

Otherwise, tell me a specific "blur" area and I will try to explain better.

Thanks, yes I was tryig to gauge if 'transfers' etc. meant a paper border change, or a physical change of the men/ garrison/ depot if such existed.

As most of your info is leading toward a later time, I'm satisfied with knowing something of the early history/ names and leave it at that.

>>Maybe not.
Ok well apart from a sweet video, clearly hers is, or going to be… depends how many 'masters' one ends up serving.

Anyway, doubled readership in two days and I'd have thought for more interest, but thats ok- I have an answer.

mm Your supreme efforts deserve reward…. hmmm…
D

"info is leading toward a later time"
Well, I wanted to complete the "arc" of the storyline :
--- all periods : generally "honorary" naming of regiments, but some exceptions
--- all periods : not too "chaotic", but rather carefully planned with changes even trialed before implementation, showing rather good foresight as to changing requirements
--- 1765-1806 : relatively stable division/inspection system being slowly expanded to serve an increasingly large empire, recruiting localized to division/inspection territory
--- 1807-1815 : numbered divisions, with divisional recuiting depots (to 1813) and assigned recruiting territories by governorate, rapid expansion to Army 2x the size of 1796, effect of the 1812 invasion
--- 1816-1820+ : numbered divisions, problem of "demobilzation" when you can't send soldier-class men back to civilian life as serf-class, implementation of the Military Settlement system, recruiting mostly localized to the regiment's Military Settlement area (and increasingly "hereditary").

"I'd have thought for more interest"
How many wargames even include supply ?
Only actual militaries study and wargame military adinistration.

I lke to study the French vs. Russians because the conflict is somewhat asymmetric. In many ways they were doing the same thing, but in some areas they were different : irregular cavalry / raiding, supply management, force structure, administration. Also, the Russians were in a constant state of active reform and improvement 1796-1815, as our recruiting example showed.

Also, as I am French (albeit Anglo-Breton to be precise – my first wife considered me rather a foreigner). I want to know how these Bashkir and Kalmyk tribesmen ended up watering their horses at the Jardins Lux in Paris. "We" had the best leader, generals, tactics, organisation, equpment, troops, etc., etc., etc., as every wargamer knows.

It is the "Napoleoic" era, not the "Ataman Platov" era. But Napoléon somehow lost (some battles …. and an empire), and Matvey Ivanovich never lost. Maybe it was his staff shaman and astrologer/necromancer ? You can't find that in Thiébault's "Manuel des adjudans généraux et des adjoints employés dans les états-majors" !

"reward"
Your kind thanks is the best reward, by far.

I concur with your summary and assessment, also those cheeky little epithets; I learned very early in my research that I had to understand la patrie as much as 'l'armée propre', so my course has always been broader than down the centre wargaming.

I perhaps met someone like your [first] wife when in France, dismissed in French as a foreign wanna-be [or perhaps 'colonial'] when she thought I didn't understand her because of my limited talent a la francaise, despite two years under an Alliance Francaise tutor.

Monsieur, Anglo-Breton, je vous salue avec un Chateauneuf du Pape Cote du Rhone 2005, un peu passé son meilleur mais toujours un goût admirable et ma dernière bouteille de l'époque !
Cependant, je suis tout aussi heureux de partager quelques imposteurs Kiwi « provinciaux » âgés, ou un Ata Rangi Pinot Noir qui a à l'occasion, battu la Bourgogne à son propre jeu!
Votre santé et votre bien-être éternels ! Hurrah !
= = = =
davew

Hurrah indeed, dear kind Kiwi !

And truely Châteauneuf-du-Pape is my favorte generally available Côtes du Rhône. Much to the distaste of both my 1st and 2nd wives, Côtes du Rhône is really the only wine I well drink happily, with whatever meal and on whatever occasion !!!

:-)