Help support TMP


"Wars of the Roses Livery Colours Database" Topic


9 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please remember that some of our members are children, and act appropriately.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Medieval Discussion Message Board

Back to the Medieval Painting Guides Message Board


Areas of Interest

Medieval

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Link


Top-Rated Ruleset

Saga


Rating: gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star gold star 


Featured Showcase Article

Fighting 15's Teutonic Order Command 1410

Command figures for the 1410 Teutonics.


Featured Book Review


744 hits since 16 Jan 2022
©1994-2022 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Tango0116 Jan 2022 9:15 p.m. PST

Of possible interest?

link

Armand

mildbill Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2022 6:01 a.m. PST

yes

Tango0117 Jan 2022 3:13 p.m. PST

Happy for that…


Armand

Arcane Steve18 Jan 2022 5:19 a.m. PST

Very interesting and useful Armand. Would be good if you posted on the War of The Roses Board so all of this lovely reference stuff was in one place! Thanks for posting though.

Tango0118 Jan 2022 3:16 p.m. PST

No mention… I was not aware about WTR Board….


Armand

Arcane Steve20 Jan 2022 5:06 a.m. PST

Hi Armand,

just in case you haven't found it:

TMP link

Tango0120 Jan 2022 3:39 p.m. PST

Thanks!.

Armand

Warspite125 Jan 2022 10:08 a.m. PST

It was nice to get a name check and a generous acknowledgement as a root source on this page.

So I hate to throw some shade on such a worthy project (especially one that was kind enough to name me) but I should point out that there are a few questionable entries on this list. Missing (unless I am going blind!) is Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York, [the original Yorkist] whose colours were azure and argent (blue and white). Confusingly these were the exact reverse of the other royal colours of Henry VI and their cousin the Duke of Somerset. Colour confusions may have led to York's death at the disastrous Battle of Wakefield in 1460.

Colours were often inherited from generation to generation as my own list in Bills, Bows and Bloodshed 2.2 shows. I also reproduce the known 100 Years Wars colours in my book to further demonstrate this. There is also the suggestion that York's surviving sons Edward Earl of March, George, Duke of Clarence and Richard, Duke of Gloucester changed the inherited family colours from blue and white to blue and murrey (blood red) to symbolise the loss of Richard Duke of York and their brother Edmund at the Battle of Wakefield. Most common men were illiterate and the murrey (wine or blood red) would be a powerful visual symbol and reminder of the family sacrifice.

Which means that the entry for Edmund as 'blue and murrey' is highly unlikely as that murrey is symbolising HIS death and that of his father. He has no need of a standard or colour change after his death.

Another questionable entry is that for Howard, Duke of Norfolk, as discussed by me, in detail, in BBB 2.2 there are numerous contemporary documents which described the Howard livery as BLACK. These include a gift of black cloth to the family by Edward IV and it being specified in that document as HIS livery. The Freezywater standards book has frequently been misread as it does specify in that book that his standard was red ONLY (no white) and this is further confirmed in the Osprey Men At Arms No 145 on plate G1 and in the text. Red and white was his son's colours.

Also missing from this list are bends and 'bendys'. The suspicion about mis-identification of colours at Wakefield and the surviving son's change to blue and murrey is further deepened by the use (by Edward) of coloured bends or sashes of red to be worn over the livery colours. These bends resemble school gym bands and served the same purpose. Edward was some 15 years late settling the mercer's bill for this cloth so we know he issued red bends in 146061 campaign. Around the same time, and possibly for the same purpose, Margaret of Anjou was issuing bends in her son's colours of red and black.
Did both sides fear a 'blue on blue' after Wakefield?

A bend is shown here:
link
but it is over the wrong shoulder.

My six-page list and essay on this subject includes town and European colours and can be found in Bills Bows and Bloodshed 2.2 currently on sale on e-bay.

Barry Slemmings

Tango0125 Jan 2022 3:23 p.m. PST

Quite interesting…. thanks


Armand

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.