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"1st & 12th Panzer Divisions at the "Bulge"?" Topic


19 Posts

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Comments or corrections?

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2022 2:00 a.m. PST

Hey guys. I'm having trouble tracking down the # and types of tanks for the 1st & 12th Divisions at the start of the Ardennes Campaign.

I'm also looking for "Assault Guns" & "Tabk Destroyers" in these stats where available.

Thanks for any help.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2022 2:10 a.m. PST

1st and 12th SS Panzer Divisions was intended I am sure.

Interested to learn from the experts here.

deephorse06 Jan 2022 2:51 a.m. PST

Zaloga has recently released this book "Tanks in the Battle of the Bulge (New Vanguard)". I have a copy, and it's all in there. I know that people like to get their stuff for free these days, but how about supporting authors and historians by buying their product?

HMS Exeter06 Jan 2022 6:44 a.m. PST

youtu.be/yUc86pTFRps

…is offered by way of a commercial for Zaloga's book(s). In the video he does a deep dive into 12 SS' combat effectiveness issues. They were understrength, inadequately supplied with fuel and ammo, and marginally trained.

It's a bit much to expect a lot from crews who've had 2 months in new roles with new equipment, and so little fuel to use to train they were basically still in driver's ed.

+1 Deephorse

ScoutJock06 Jan 2022 7:48 a.m. PST

According to Thomas L Jentz Panzer Truppen vol 2:

1st SS-Panzer-Division LSSAH
SS – Pz. Rgt. 1

s.SS – Pz. Abt. 501
45 PzVI in three companies. These were Tiger IIs

I. / SS Pz.Rgt.1
37 PzIV(lg) in two companies
45 PzV in two companies
4 FlakpzIV (2V)
4 FlakpzIV (37)


12.SS-Panzer-Division H.J.

SS-Pz.Rgt. 12

I. / SS-Pz.Rgt. 12
37 PzIV(lg) in two companies
41 PzV in two companies

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2022 8:42 a.m. PST

Many thanks to all!

Thresher0106 Jan 2022 3:28 p.m. PST

There are some good online sources with more info, including the number of halftracks, armored cars, etc., too.

560th Jagdpanther Battalion was attached to the 12th SS, IIRC, based upon a reference I just read in the last day or two.

Tiger IIs were left at the rear by Peiper, since he deemed them to be too slow.

deephorse07 Jan 2022 7:36 a.m. PST

+1 Deephorse

Thanks HMS Exeter. However, I knew that someone would provide the required information eventually. We like to be helpful, but when that help jeopardises the likelihood of further research being done, then I tend to think twice about giving it.

My interest in things military pre-dates the internet, when you either bought a book, or tried to persuade your local library to buy one so that you could then borrow it for the next three years. The book buying habit has stuck with me, and I think that more people should 'invest' in the various military historians that try to satisfy our needs. Without them no-one would be able to quote Jentz.

williamb07 Jan 2022 8:14 a.m. PST

IIRC there is a website that details how many of the Tiger II'a broke down at the Battle of the Bulge before they got into combat.

Not exactly the web site I was looking for, but has data on causes of loses with almost 2/3 not due to combat.
panzerworld.com/tiger-losses

donlowry07 Jan 2022 10:21 a.m. PST

Deephorse:

As an author, I appreciate your viewpoint.

Thresher0107 Jan 2022 2:35 p.m. PST

A lot of them simply ran out of fuel too, apparently.

HMS Exeter07 Jan 2022 8:13 p.m. PST

@Deephorse

As I am oft wont to say in this hobby.

You buy figures, but you invest in books.

LeonAdler Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Jan 2022 11:27 p.m. PST

Well it maybe gernerational or just an inadequate mindset but I can never properly absorb info from a screen, Has to be a hard copy for me to the point where I now have to operate a one in one out policy with books.
L

Martin Rapier08 Jan 2022 12:48 a.m. PST

Jentz is good on the tanks, but sadly misses out all the SP guns. As noted, 12th SS had an attached heavy tank destroyer battalion with a mix of Jagdpanthers and Jagdpanzer IVs. Both divisions also had their SP tank destroyer battalions, one of them formed the core of a 1st SS KG. At this stage of the war, also equipped with Jagdpanzer IVs.

deephorse08 Jan 2022 3:22 a.m. PST

As HMS Exeter says, why not 'invest' £10.00 GBP or so in Zaloga's book, and have all the information at your fingertips for evermore?

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2022 12:36 a.m. PST

"As HMS Exeter says, why not 'invest' £10.00 GBP GBP or so in Zaloga's book, and have all the information at your fingertips for evermore?"

Just waiting for it to arrive Brother!

This one too:
link

deephorse09 Jan 2022 3:57 a.m. PST

Excellent news!

witteridderludo09 Jan 2022 1:29 p.m. PST

What is a PzIV (lg)?

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2022 6:24 a.m. PST

Long barrel, (75/43 or 75/48) as opposed to short barrel (75/24).

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