Warspite1 | 31 Dec 2021 9:39 a.m. PST |
YouTube link An interesting simulation of the path of the shot which knocked out the first Tiger to be captured by the British. 131 is still a runner and appeared in the film 'Fury'. I own an original 6-pounder solid shot (it's on my mantlepiece!) and two original cartridge cases for the 6-pounder/57mm. I saw 131 in 2010: link It is still possible to see the shot gouges under the 88mm gun barrel. Barry |
Oberlindes Sol LIC  | 02 Jan 2022 9:54 a.m. PST |
interesting -- thanks for posting the link |
Warspite1 | 03 Jan 2022 4:03 p.m. PST |
Thank you. It only went up recently and I was fascinated by it, given that I own an identical AP solid shot. B |
Wolfhag  | 03 Jan 2022 6:47 p.m. PST |
I've been to Bovington and examined the Tiger too. It appears to me the shot can from slightly to the Tiger's left and a little lower in elevation, that may indicate a shot from an anti-tank gun. IIRC the hull roof didn't look very damaged. In a description I read the round was lodged at the bottom of the turret just above the hull roof effectively locking the turret in place. The description said the shell was pulled out by hand and the turret worked. However, I can't find that reference now. We spent the night in a quaint B&B near Bovington called Shitterton. link Wolfhag |
Andy ONeill | 04 Jan 2022 8:05 a.m. PST |
Probably a 6pdr shot from a Churchill but possibly a round from a captured French 75 YouTube link I visited Bovington in the 70s. I think 1978. |
Wolfhag  | 06 Jan 2022 12:40 p.m. PST |
So are there any rules that would include this happening to the Tiger or any other tank? Wolfhag |
Mserafin  | 06 Jan 2022 1:42 p.m. PST |
In the old set Tractics there was a 1in 20 chance of getting a hit on the turret ring, although they weren't detailed enough to distinguish between a penetration of the tank or just jamming the turret. But 131 was lost through incremental damage, none of it necessarily lethal, that caused the crew to bail out. Not sure how many rules could model that. But then I tend to play operational-level games that don't reflect such a level of detail. |
Wolfhag  | 06 Jan 2022 4:47 p.m. PST |
So in the last 50 years no rule set has attempted to portray something like this in a playable manner? Wolfhag |
Mserafin  | 06 Jan 2022 6:14 p.m. PST |
I have no idea. But it's hard to imagine one that can model something to this level and still be playable. I think you might be able to do it in a computer game, maybe. |
Andy ONeill | 08 Jan 2022 2:21 a.m. PST |
Who cares about the teeny tiny details led to this specific flavour of kill. It's a critical hit. There are a number of skirmish rules have critical hits. Including mine. Looked at another way, it met a bunch of tanks greatly outnumbered it. Plus maybe a single repurposed gun. There are more abstract rules that model outnumbering. If only by suppression conversion to neutralisation and then to kill. |
Wolfhag  | 10 Jan 2022 11:03 a.m. PST |
Who cares about the teeny tiny details led to this specific flavour of kill. It's a critical hit. There are a number of skirmish rules have critical hits. Including mine. I think lots of people do, especially me. I like PLAYABLE results that deliver a narrative like a historical After Action Report in a game with up to 40 vehicles per side. When rolling for hit location there is a 5% chance of a critical hit, up to 20% under ideal circumstances. So it's one extra die roll on the Critical Hit Chart that takes place 3-5 times in a 3 hour game so it's not a game breaker regarding playability but a single result can be pivotable in a battle. Some of the results are a Partial Ricochet – armor 150%, hit external storage, no damage, turret or gun jammed, weak spot/gap hit armor 50%, shot trap, hatch, spalling damage, morale check, main gun KO, etc. Some players have customized them for specific vehicles. Ricochets were fairly common in WWII. On the Hit Location of some vehicles with a rounded surface or compound angle of 70+ degrees (no math involved) there is a ricochet chance that the defending player takes that makes results even more unpredictable and the defending player can get involved. It's a real crowd pleaser. However, it's not how often these things happen in a game it's the anticipation and unknown each time the dice are rolled that creates suspense with the players. It also means that no tank is 100% safe even if it's armor cannot be penetrated. That forces players to think they are not invincible as not tank is 100% safe. It also means a target that you'd expect a 0% chance of surviving on occasion will. Since we use a streamlined sequence of play that parses the action without determining initiative, orders phase, spotting phase, alternate move/shoot sequences, etc as in most games so we can spend more time on historic details and outcomes rather than abstracted game mechanics and keep the game moving along. To spice thinks up even further when rolling to hit there is a small chance of a SNAFU with historical results like a jam, misfire, etc that happens at the worst time. For the players, these are some of the most entertaining parts of the game because it's a surprise or unexpected. We played a game with a critical hit result that was a 1 in 2000 chance of happening and wouldn't you know it, I took the first roll on the chart and got it! Wolfhag |
Murvihill | 11 Jan 2022 7:05 a.m. PST |
When I started messing with the current rules I made I started with who was the player representing? For me it's (basically) a company commander. For tanks that means the player's concern is whether a tank is a runner or not. In other words is the tank available for use or is it not available for use? It follows that a kill is a kill whether it had a 120mm shell blast the turret 100 feet away or a 20mm AT rifle scared the crew off. So, not poo-pooing those who like ultra-detailed rules, but pointing out that the granularity of the rules should be based on the level of command the rules intend to depict. |
Wolfhag  | 11 Jan 2022 7:01 p.m. PST |
but pointing out that the granularity of the rules should be based on the level of command the rules intend to depict. My opinion is the granularity should be based on whatever the designer wants it to be and wants to simulate to be fun and entertaining. There is no governing authority to enforce design ideas. There's enough room for everyone and everything. Normally the granularity needs to decrease (more abstraction, less detail) as the command level increases to be playable. Playing out a division level game shot-by-shot would not be fun. I don't normally play play more than a two Companies per side so we can finish in 2-3 hours. I guess in my design I'm playing the overall commander along with the tank commander, gunner and driver for each tank. That's not exactly realistic but it works for me. Wolfhag |
rvandusen  | 20 Jan 2022 1:34 p.m. PST |
For my own games using my own rules, I require that the vehicle crew has to pass a simple morale check in order to stay in a damaged tank. These checks just require a roll of 2D6 with a 7+ passing. On a 2 or 3 the crew will bail out and head for home. A 4-6 would allow the crew to stay in the tank but it may not move or fire this turn. Not a whole lot to remember. |
WarpSpeed | 25 Jan 2022 6:05 p.m. PST |
"Helmut,didnt Rutger eat three hard boiled eggs for breakfast and now he is on his second bowl of sauerkraut soup?" "Ja,bail out !". |
Wolfhag  | 26 Jan 2022 5:53 a.m. PST |
rvandusen, I've heard first person accounts of German crewman were ordered to stay in their tank until it catches fire. American Sherman crewman bailed on the first penetration, if they were still alive. I only use a Morale Check from Spalling damage. Wolfhag |