"What if ??" Topic

At the risk of getting the Werewolves and Banshee's screaming again tonight -- here is some wonderful "what if" possibilities?
Reading a wonderful book at the moment-- "Napoleon in America" by Shannon Selin.
A scenario where the famous privateer Laffite helps the great man escape St. Helena?
I will reveal no more and allow your imaginations to run wild-- that is if you have an imagination-- if not there are numerous "scenario books" available to help tell you exactly what to do next?

Russ Dunaway

Very interesting. Now hopefully someone with an imagination will show up.

What if Napoleon had a B-52 at Waterloo?

What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?

To the point though, that sounds like an interesting book. Just like the Michael Ney escape to America legend, it's fun to speculate.

The werewolf's tired tonight. Could he howl tomorrow?

Springing Napoleon from St Helena seems like a perfectly feasible "what if" scenario, with a good deal of historical information available. Maps of St Helena and suitable British and Baratarian castings are available, though I'm not sure any of the pirates looks like Yul Brynner.

Post-escape conflicts strike me as high cost/low reward for the historical miniatures player. First the once and future Emperor has to raise a new army in the Americas, and we have to guess at uniforms, flags and organization. Then, unless Selin has a good set of scaled maps, we have to invent or steal scenarios. I've fought "imagi-nations" before, and expect to again, but Bonaparte strikes me as being more a limitation than a value added.

(Naturally, I'll reconsider this once Old Glory manufactures figures and uniform guides for Napoleon's American Empire, and I turn up Fortescue's volumes on the post-St Helena Napoleonic Wars. But I understand the map volume especially is very rare.)

A novel, of course is very different from a miniatures battle. I can and do read and re-read John M. Ford's The Dragon Waiting, without any desire to build an alternate Byzantine army, complete with wizard and dragon. Loosing the Corsican Ogre might also make an interesting campaign game--no tabletop battles at all, or resolved as local pairs deem best.

Speculus,
in one episode of Twilight zone Custer had an M3 Stuart tank that had went through a time warp.
Great episode!!
Custer still lost though as the tank ran out of gas and the crew had to emerge to eventually join Custer and his men in the cemetery at the LBH.
I also enjoy the "Ney Escaped to America" writings.

Russ Dunaway

As far a possible plans to be born in Napoleons head I can see him building a power base and his eyes turning toward Mexico?
Also,perhaps even gaining influence in the United States politics.

Russ Dunaway

Actually go for a scenario of rather than selling the Louisiana Purchase, use it as a launching off point for a conquest of Spanish Florida, and if successful go for the soft underbelly of the United States. Pair that with taking Spain at the same time and you get the gold producing assets of the Americas, chunks of the Mediterranean, and a continent. War of 1812 but French vs Brits, and in reverse – who's attacking vs defending.

Yes, vs history the foreign policy and strategic considerations are off, there is the pesky problem of the Royal Navy cutting off your supply lines (so need to posit a reverse Trafalgar). But the Old Guard marching on DC?! Davout facing off Andrew Jackson?! French Dragoons roaming Georgia?!

What if the Corsican Ogre actually was an ogre?

Rescue Napoleon would be a great scenario.

Napoleon raises an Army of 100,000 Americans to help him re-invade Europe.

I doubt he had it in him. The psychological knock he took after the catastrophe of the 100 days likely knocked the stuffing out of him. He was a sick man and only had six more years to live.

I suspect his heart and mind were in Europe with his wife but more importantly for him, with his son. The French themselves learnt the hard way that the game was well and truly over – no one wins against all-comers indefinitely.

I doubt the Americans of this era would have ventured far from their respective home states in any significant numbers.

Fun to speculate all the same.

"What ifs" make history so much more interesting to me. They challenge the mind.

Most "historical" games are "what ifs" to some degree?
What if Ney had handled the great cavalry charge better at Waterloo? "What if" the Confererate's had taken the high ground the 1st day of Gettysburg? "What if' the carriers had been at Pearl harbor?
To me the whole purpose of warGAMING is "what ifs" or it all becomes redundant?

Russ Dunaway

Or did Napoleon's health return after several years of respite and no longer being poisoned?
Does England -- in spite-begin to seize American ships again --thus Infuriating the United States?
Remember --at this time Americans were very pro French and anti royalty?
I have witnessed plenty of so called "historical simulations" with wall to wall soldiers on terrain close in appearance to Nebraska?

Russ Dunaway

Canada also lies there for the taking for ambitious people?

Russ Dunaway

A bit of context would be helpful. Why did Lafitte go down there? Was he recruited by someone or some group? Was it in furtherance of some adventure of his own devising? Did he go down there to pluck a prize to be sold to the highest bidder?

Lafitte did not roll out of his rack one morning and decide to sail 6500 miles just to have a gander at the Southern Cross.

To wit.

The vampire Le Comte Henri deLavigne, a French expat living in Louisiana, indebted to the Emperor, engages Lafitte to conduct a rescue. The Emperor is brought to New Orleans and then smuggled across the river to Algiers Point's L'infirmerie du St. Jacques, which appears on no map that eyes without the sight can see.

The Infirmary is at once neutral ground for many who walk in the shadows and a school, known of, but not sanctioned by MACUSA. Here Napoleon is ministered to by the Voodoo Mambo Evangeline Laveau who treats his arsenic poisoning with Bal in huile.

The world is in turmoil over the vanished "ogre." Speculation is that he drowned himself, tho no one dares believe it.

Stronger and rejuvenated, he ventures out in the darkness with La Comte. "Eh been," La Comte asks, "what for you now?"

Napoleon stares across the river at the lights of the city, sighs, and utters quietly.

"Le monde."

Little does he know that many in Europe are already forming special groups to hunt for the Ogre in all the shadowy corners of the world. They go by many names, but primarily…

La Baļonnette d'Argent.

Already a game for that called the "silver bayonet."

As far as Laffite's motives -- I would not want to ruin the book for anyone else.
Just read the book.

Or you could just do Waterloo again, and again, and again, and again, and again?
Or perhaps have Blucher retreat back towards Berlin -- but that would be a "what if" game wouldn't it?

Russ Dunaway

The only problem with the 'Napoleon escapes' scenarios is that he is dead by 1821 killed by the stomach cancer that killed his father. Not being subject to the unhealthy environment of St Helena and the petty restrictions of Hudson Lowe would probably not have changed that.

Discuss…

But we NEEEver will know and it becomes a part of the "what if."
What if Lowe was poisoning him slowly ??
Another 20 years of adventure left in him perhaps?
"Out the box my man, out of the box !!"

Russ Dunaway

Lowe didn't need to poison Bonaparte slowly – his own entourage were already doing it.

Nonetheless, the poisoning would have ceased.
Napoleon vs Santa Anna !!

Russ Dunaway

@Old Glory

Didn't realize that Santa Anna had joined the military at 16 by 1810. Okay, so we can get "Souviens le Alamo!" – the 14th Legere holds down an obscure French Texas mission against a Spanish/Mexican army with young Santa Anna in the mix

Actually, ChaosMan, there's full-scale war in Texas while the (historical) Napoleonic Wars are in progress, complete with American filibusters out of New Orleans. Just very poorly documented, and usually ignored in history books and films. (Many things are. When's the last Western you saw with Spanish hussars fighting Commanches?)
link
But I've yet to see the Battle of Medina played at a convention.

CHAOS man 1810-- where did you get that date?
Napoleon was still emperor of the French in 1810.
We are talking 1820- a short 14 years from the actual Texas Revolution.
Napoleon a healthy 60s something.
Perhaps he invades Mexico as the United States takes advantage and declared an early Mexican American war?
Dissatisfied French Veterans flock to the States to join.
A unknown School teacher from Carolina now emerges as one of Napoleons own -- "the bravest of the
Brave!!"
Napoleon, Ney, Houston, Winfield Scott, Crocket, Bowie --- side by side

Russ Dunaway

CHAOS man 1810-- where did you get that date?
Napoleon was still emperor of the french in 1810.
We are talking 1820- a short 14 years from the actual Texas Revolution.
Napoleon a healthy 60s something.
Perhaps he invades Mexico as the United States takes advantage of the situation and declare a early Mexican American war?
Dissatisfied French Veterans flock to the States to join.
A unknown School teacher from Carolina now emerges as one of Napoleons own -- "the bravest of the
Brave!!"
Napoleon, Ney, Winfield Scott, Houston, Crockett, Bowie all side by side !!
Russ Dunaway

@Old Glory

Sorry, I was remarking that Antonio Santa Anna joined the Mexican military at the age of 16 in 1810. Just that one tends to think of him as a figure of the 1840s. Meanwhile he's fighting "counter insurgencies" in his teens, gets an arrow in the hand, gets made a lieutenant in 1812. So he's on the field.

And if one posits a successful Mediterranean campaign by France 1803-1804; which permits further movement into Central America/Spanish territories…Santa Anna is "on the field" in roughly right time to face off against French troops (albeit as a young man).

Fascinating. a quarter million troops used to try to conquer the Peninsula; meanwhile 43,000 to suppress Haitian revolt and the UK uses 73,000 to prosecute the war of 1812. Use the Grande Armee for a whole New World play – instead of fhe UK. Still the pesky problem of the Royal Navy.

Dissatisfied French Veterans flock to the States to join

Still the pesky problem of the Royal Navy.,

Well, yes

The whole scenario is based on Napoleon escaping to America in 1820
Napoleon considered American sailors superior to the British and of course in the war of 1812 they gave a small hint of that?
Now just provide them with the necessary ships -- of course you would have the problem in early 19th America of securing timber???
By the 1820s America could rule the seas as she does now?

Russ Dunaway

"Souviens-toi d'Alamo!"

"se Souvenir" is reflexive and "Alamo" takes an article.

Otherwise, great ideas!

The whole scenario is based on Napoleon escaping to America in 1820
Napoleon considered American sailors superior to the British and of course in the war of 1812 they gave a small hint of that?
Now just provide them with the necessary ships -- of course you would have the problem in early 19th America of securing timber???
By the 1820s America could rule the seas as she does now?

So! the excuse that the US went to war over their sailors 'jumping ship' from the Royal Navy, did not infest the US Navy? Were those US naval personnel all 'untainted' blue-blooded, Americans? Oh! had the US persisted, those ships would have been 'Shannoned' and the US Navy bottled up in port (which it was anyway)

I think the point about Napoleon being a limiting factor is very valid – by all means send him to central or southern America and have him try to build a new empire (Mexico?), ignoring his health concerns and his age, I just think that he was burnt out and a busted flush. Europe is at peace and the US has more important things to be doing than getting involved in transatlantic invasions.

If you really want to go for it, have his son be lifted from Vienna at the same time in a variant of the Four Sergeants of La Rochelle story, as well as a cache of looted gold (makes a change from Nazi gold in media) so there is something for a new Napoleonic empire to play with in terms of growth, during a time of flux.

Let him do most of the campaigning in a warmer climate, supported by Bonapartist emigres who Europe is glad to see the back of, whilst Dad offers the Code Napoleon. The Monroe Doctrine should kick in, but if it's Napoleonic Mexico, Brazil or Argentina and not France colonising, then you have room to play with. Maybe have a look at this one next for inspiration as it's less reliant on Napoleon himself?

link

I do not think "I" mentioned any possible return to Europe?
Although, armed with an imagination I see no reason to take it completely off the table?
As you mentioned, I was speaking of his possible influence in the Americas-- I think I may have even mentioned Canada?

Russ Dunaway

ignoring his health concerns and his age

Napoleon and Wellington were the same age. If age were truly a limiting factor, perhaps Wellington suffers a debilitating stroke and eliminates the only able general the British produced during most of the wars. That would certainly leave the UK open for a Napoleonic revenge tour.

Au pas de Charge

Napoleon and Wellington were the same age. If age were truly a limiting factor, perhaps Wellington suffers a debilitating stroke and eliminates the only able general the British produced during most of the wars. That would certainly leave the UK open for a Napoleonic revenge tour.

Ah! yes! But say Wellington has a stroke in February, But damn! Would you believe it! Nappy goes and has a very similar one three weeks later?

@Old Glory

Thanks for the what if. It triggered for me curiousity, research and some discovery.

How much of an actual plan there was to flee to the US vs surrender to the British. "One of his relatives wrote to another: 'You've surely heard of the latest misfortunes of the Emperor … He's going to the United States, where we shall all join him. He's quite calm and courageous.' His plan, Murat wrote, was to move 3 million gold francs to an American bank. He instructed underlings to ready his mperial library, the fine china and linen, enough furniture for two homes and a score of hunting guns. He also planned to take plenty of horses and 15 stable keepers."
link

How many relatives/siblings did make it to the US. With one descendant who became Secretary of the Navy to Roosevelt!
link

And the role Grande Armee veterans played in the wars of Latin/South American independence from Spain
link

Nicely done!

link

And then there is this.

"What if…?
YouTube link

Very interesting-- terrifying to think about but interesting.

Russ Dunaway

Russ, if you thought my post was directed soley at your posts, then apologies, but it really wasn't. Other posts reference Europe and five years after Waterloo I find it hard to believe that restarting on anything like a similar scale isn't going to happen with Napoleon himself. Likewise American involvement in Europe (or indeed Canada) given Monroe's views, accommodations with Britain and the far more interesting situation in Latin America. In that situation Napoleon Jr learns his trade with smaller armies whilst Dad has to engage in political campaigning rather than on the march.

For those who do want to explore a Franco-Austrian alliance vs Russo-Prussian interests then have Napoleon be mortally wounded at a more convincing Borodino, in a victory which allows the Grand Armee to retreat in relatively good order, whilst Napoleon has time to nominate a regent (Joseph?) and his father-in-law is grateful for the offer of a treaty. Armies haven't suffered their historical losses of 1812-14 and there is the opportunity to draw breath before Prussia and Russia set their sights on the Saxons and Poles.

French troops withdraw from Spain as a gesture of goodwill but the Empire is undefeated and still has intact borders, with a German confederation and Duchy of Warsaw as minor allies. Britain is happy to see a relatively balanced Europe for the time being, the war of 1812 is short-lived and men and money are saved. A Marshallate Junta supports the French Regent, Austria has a greater role to play in the alliance and Bernadotte can choose his side.

La Belle, certainly no apologies needed and no. I took nothing you said as directed at me.
All your points are valid -- or what if Napoleon had never envaded Russia in the first place, consolidating his power in Germany and concentrating on Spain -- all of course rational behavior?
OR -- was he just ahead of the curve and the storm was coming either way?

Russ Dunaway

Russ,

I think too much water has gone under the bridge by 1812 for Napoleon not to enter Russia. His armed forces are as large as they're going to be, Austria and Prussia have troops on his side and British aid to Russia is limited by the Peninsula.

From a wargaming perspective I think taking Napoleon out of the equation, whilst leaving France less vulnerable, opens up possibilities for a good length of time.

I did posit an alternative Spain scenario some time ago, which got derailed, but I think you have to go back further and not have Napoleon depose the Spanish monarchy whilst dismembering Portugal. That's far more rational, allows Joseph to continue learning his trade somewhere he's quite popular, makes it much harder for Britain to support Portugal and perhaps most importantly – demonstrates Napoleon working in partnership with another Power for mutual benefit. The question is, will he adopt the rational course?

And if Bonaparte happened to get bitten by a radioactive spider……

Which simply means he woukd not of been present as in Spain but it woukd seem a rationale man woukd have a better imagination?
I KNOW-- line little army men up on a table from edge to edge and advance across in 3 inch increments -- as the left flank reacts to events on the right flank it would know absolutely about?
Very real indeed.

Wasn't there something about Napoleon managing to get to southern Africa and meeting with an ambitious young Zulu the name of Shaka?

Who would have promptly disemboweled him with his assegai I would bet. No great fan of competition was old Shaka.