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"Percy Retinue Standards displayed" Topic


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ChrisC8828 Dec 2021 1:24 p.m. PST

I'm in the process of putting together a small force, predominately will be used for lion rampant and similar small games.

The forces I'm doing are not intended to be 100% accurate but I'm wanting to get the feel about right. ( will be using them in the Percy Neville fued up to WoTR)

The first of the two forces I'm going to be doing are to be led by Thomas Percy Baron Egremont. However he was never a rich man, so I will be having some units supplied by Henry Percy. However when it comes to standards banners and guidons I'm a bit confuzzled.

I would assume the army standard would be the Percy standard, the personal standard would be for Baron Egremont but what would a unit supplied by the Earl show – would it be the earls personal standard (which I don't think it would be as he wasn't there) ??

Anyway can someone help simplify who would be showing what.

I'm not opening the whole livery debate so can we focus on the standards and personal banners etc

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP28 Dec 2021 5:33 p.m. PST

G'day, Chris. Egremont would use his own standard, as you say. Though there's some debate about whether standards were used outside of tournaments or camps by the WotR, with the commanders using a squarish banner (heraldic arms on it) in battle because the standards got quite big and unwieldy. I've stuck with a standard for my main commander and given his underlings their banners, just for the look of it.

The "units" would be using either a square banner in livery colours with a single badge, or possibly small, simplified version of the standard (no motto and a single badge on it), if they have one at all. Most of what I've read slightly favours the former, so I've used the small standards for some units, to add a bit of difference to them. (I also use the livery banners/standards to mark veteran troops when we play NMTBH- retinue troops have livery jacks and levies are in "civvies", so can play for either side as required.)

There's enough debate, even in the Lance and Longbow articles and discussions I have on CD, so that I doubt you could be called wrong no matter what you decided, mate.

Cheers.

Warspite110 Jan 2022 9:24 a.m. PST

Standards and banners, plus livery jacket colours are a sometimes confusing or controversial subject especially during this period. Dal Gavan refers to the Lance and Longbow (Hobilar) articles. I was the author of the article on livery colours and this has been expanded by me and now appears as six A4 pages in my recently published Bills, Bows and Bloodshed 2.2

Referring to BBB 2.2 first, Percy colours are shown as red and black in that order. My primary source for this is 'Standards, Badges, and Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses' by McGill and Jone and published by the Lance and Longbow Society. This is red over black on the long standard but might be red and black vertical halves on a banner.

It is noticeable that among some lords with large and diverse estates multiple badges are used. It has been hypothesised that each separate badge may represent a separate estate but this cannot be confirmed. It is simply plausible. Edward IV is credited with as many as 13 badges I read somewhere and some of these may have been inherited from his Mortimer ancestors on his mother's side.

Referring to the illustration of the same Percy standard (red over black) this shows several Percy badges including a white lion, white shackle bolts, white crescents, a hunting horn in blue with yellow bands, and a curved falchion sword with a black scabbard and yellow fittings. Line drawing Fig 2 on page 6 also uses the Percy standard to show how any of these separate badges might have been used as a single item, perhaps as company or estate standards.

Referring to Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses by Coveney (also published by Lance and Longbow) the Percy arms are shown quartered with the blue lion on yellow (1st quarter), three white fish on red (2nd quarter), with these repeating on the second line, fish (3rd quarter) and lion (4th quarter). This would be the Earl's only.

See: link

His sons would display similar but with a cadency mark.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadency

Now we are lucky that the same book also shows the full banner of Sir Richard Percy (Thomas' BROTHER) as a blue lion on yellow (i.e. same as 1st and 4th quarters of his father's) with a white annulet (circle) on the lion as the cadency mark. Which means Sir Richard was counted by the heralds as the official 5th son.


This means that the first son known to have been born, in 1418, was discounted when calculating cadency. See:

link

This first son evidently did not survive infancy.

If this is the case then Henry Percy (later 3rd Earl) would have carried had a label of three points during his father's lifetime and your Thomas would have been SECOND son in the heraldic pecking order and would have carried the crescent moon as his cadency mark. Now, as a white crescent moon was also a Percy badge (see main standard, above) it is very tempting to suggest that Thomas either carried a crescent moon as his personal badge alone OR he used a white lion on his standard adorned with a crescent moon.

So… what we PROBABLY have for Lord Egremont is a yellow banner bearing an upright blue lion and a white crescent moon – for cadency – as his banner (heraldic coat of arms) but if he follows his father's practice it will be red/black with a white lion and crescent moon upon it has his standard or livery banner. The crescent moon would not be white (as the lion is white) and would probably be black or red.

Note also that the Percy lion changes colour between the banner (blue) and the standard or livery banner (white). This is because of the rule that you cannot put a colour on a colour or a metal on a metal. The 'metals' were white/silver and yellow/gold. It was simple common sense to create this rule as putting a colour on a colour would create a lack of contrast in a period when no telescopes or binoculars were used. Everything had to be easy to read AT DISTANCE to aid in identifying friends and foes.

As a footnote: Bills, Bows and Bloodshed, with the six-page livery colour article, is currently available on e-bay.

Barry

Warspite110 Jan 2022 9:40 a.m. PST

Footnote:

Reading the Wiki for Lord Egremont and the comment about him being 'quarrelsome and violent'

link

might be explained by his position in the pecking order as second son. Most inheritances in this period were father to eldest son and the rest got little from father but might have benefitted from their mother or grand-parents, etc.

Wiki also notes that Percy fortunes were in decline so his attitudes may have stemmed from being second son and knowing he was not inheriting even a declining fortune.

Barry

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