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"The Life Guard Grenadier Regiment Pavlovski 1796 -1895" Topic


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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP18 Nov 2021 3:33 p.m. PST

Good as painting guide…


link

Armand

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP18 Nov 2021 6:52 p.m. PST

Well it better be, because the script is illiterate rubbish old pal! Just a few items off the top of my head…

They fought at Austerlitz in 1805.

Err, no they didn't.
They were still in Russia and not 'mobilised'.

Following that, the Mitre caps of the grenadiers were abolished…

Errr, no, they were 'abolished' practically in 1803 and a 'wide spread' new order issued Feb 1805. Still didn't happen universally, so is a misleading statement.

The Pavlovski, did not receive them and were still wearing the mitre at the battle of Friedland in 1807.

True enough.

The titles given, didn't exist for the dates cited.
In 1790 if that is a correct date, they were a line Grenadier, not Guard regiment.

They did not become 'LIFE-GUARD' until promoted to the guard proper, if I may quote from TMP-

Czar transferred regiment to Guard in April 1813. It is known that new guard uniform with red lapels they received only at the end of 1814. Brass chinscales for soldiers were introduced in 1812, certainly Guard units and some regiments received them even before the invasion but many regiments including several line grenadier regiments continued to wear black leather chinstraps even by 1815.

Otherwise very pretty. Did they have a 'lace' before they entered the guard?
Interesting also, that none of the uniforms show the 'fusilier' cap as existed in Grenadier regiments.

Of course, just to be completely factual, ALL the Russian guard infantry in 1805 had been issued the new shakos, whereas the line hadn't!

cheers d

Michman19 Nov 2021 8:32 a.m. PST

I agree with Dave, as usual.
Some more details ….

The Pavlov Grenadier regiment did not exist until late November 1796. But since their preceding regiment was a sort of double sized unit, the regiment was granted seniority of 12 May 1790. As they were not part of Potemkin's army, it is unclear to what extent the regiment adopted a Potemkin uniform (short "kurtka" jacket, helmet, loose pants, etc.) from 1790 through 1796. They retained red collars, cuffs and lapels into 1799. Thet did have yellow/gold woven galon tabs above the cuffs 1797-1801.

15.05.1790 – Moscow Infantry regiment / Московскiй Пѣхотный полкъ of 4 Musketeer battalions, each of 4 Musketeer companies, is formed from 1 battalion of the Tenginsk Musketeer regiment, 1 Moscow Garrison battalion, drafts from the Vladimir and Glukhov Garrison battalions and recruits from Tver, Yaroslavl, Kostroma and Perm.
19.04.1791 – Moscow Grenadier regiment / Московскiй Гренадерскiй полкъ of 4 Grenadier battalions, each of 4 Grenadier companies
03.08.1795 – a Replacement battalion of 4 Replacement companies, is added

19.11.1796 – Lieutenant-General Vadkovsky's Grenadier regiment / Гренадерскiй Генералъ-Поручика Вадковскаго полкъ of 2 Grenadier battalions and 2 Replacement companies is formed by splitting the Moscow Grenadier regiment in half
22.11.1796 – Pavlov Grenadier regiment / Павловскiй Гренадерскiй полкъ
29.11.1796 – organized as 2 Grenadier battalions, each of 5 Grenadier companies and 1 Flank company
late 1797 – issued 1797 Model flags : 1 with orange color / оранжевый цвет corners & white cross, 9 with white corners & orange color cross, woodwork straw yellow
31.10.1798 – Major-General Emme's Grenadier regiment / Гренадерскiй Генералъ-Маiора Эмме полкъ
08.04.1800 – Major-General Kerbitz's Grenadier regiment / Гренадерскiй Генералъ-Маiора Кербица полкъ
31.03.1801 – Pavlov Grenadier regiment / Павловскiй Гренадерскiй полкъ
21.03.1802 – flags were reduced to 1 with white cross and 5 with orange cross, 2 per bataillon
30.04.1802 – organized as 1 Grenadier battalion, of 4 Grenadier companies, and 2 Fusilier battalions, each of 4 Fusilier companies
23.12.1808 – woodwork ordered to be black, which appears to have been implemented as flags returned in 1814 had black staffs when inventoried in 1900
12.10.1810 – organized as 3 Fusilier battalions, each of 1 Grenadier company and 3 Fusilier companies
early 1813 – flags were reduced to 1 with orange cross per bataillon
13.04.1813 – Life-Guards Pavlov regiment / Лейбъ-Гвардiи Павловскiй полкъ included in the Young Guard

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP19 Nov 2021 10:54 a.m. PST

Thank you michman for the additional information.
The 'creational handling' of Russian regiments has been a constant worry over the years as the information available in English has been scattered at best.

This also comes form the 'english kanguage' habit of calling the mitre a 'Pavlov' one, which is of course a misused designation.

This is one unit that I have no intetion of recreating, however the need is there for a variety of others who were at Austerlitz.

To turn this vessel into something useful- can you comment on the difference of- why some regiments retained coloured facings including lapels on coats, yet others like here are depicted in a lapel-less or at least green only coat (excepting collar, cuffs and truenbacks of course)?

The excellent Eureka range of 'Rev War 1799' Russians have a wide range covering both types of dress [that I know are not 100% usable for Austerlitz campaign] and I'd like to employ more.

regards dave≠

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP19 Nov 2021 1:38 p.m. PST

[Should have linked in:-
TMP link ]

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP19 Nov 2021 1:59 p.m. PST

Thanks.

Armand

Michman20 Nov 2021 4:14 a.m. PST

"information available …. has been scattered " : very true …. Russians are not hard to research in Russian language, but it is more challenging to get the details right while looking only in English. This is at least partly because much of the best Russian research work has been done only recently by amateur historians, museum staff and local/regional specialists and "published" in many scattered articles, websites and symposia reports.

Although the Russians entered into the conflicts in western Europe only in 1799, there are some other conflicts which you can game with them in the era 1787-1797 :
--- 1787–1792 : Turkish War, Russians led by Potemkin
--- 1788–1790 : Swedish War
--- 1792-1794 : Polish War & Uprising
--- 1796 : Persian War, stopped "mid-stream" upon the death of Catherine in late 1796
There was also substantial tension between Russia and the Prussians and British 1789-1792 …. for those who play "what if".


The period of 1786 to late 1796 saw the adoption of the "Potemkin" uniforms for non-officers : more simple, less costly, more practical. This uniform was generally adopted in units under Potemkin's command in the south (sometimes including the officers) – but adopted in whole or part, with local variations, slowly over time with wear-out of old uniforms, etc. elsewhere.

During Paul's reign (late 1796-1801) the style of the uniforms resembled those of 1763-1786, but approx. 28 Army heavy infantry regiments had no lapels, approx. 14 Army heavy infantry regiments had no collars, and about 9 had neither. Garrison infantry had a similar distribution. The Guards heavy infantry all had collars and cuffs. The distribution does *not* appear to have been by division/inspection nor by seniority. For examples (* = with collar and lapels) …
--- Livonia division : St.-Petersburg Grenadiers no lapels, Taurica Grenadiers *, Rostov Musketeers no lapels, Nizov Musketeers no collar, Kursk Musketeers *, Smolensk Musketeers *, Perm Musketeers *, Polotsk Musketeers *, Voronezh Musketeers *
--- Ukraine division : Little-Russia Grenadiers *, Kiev Grenadiers no lapels or collar, Uglich Musketeers *, Vladimir Musketeers *, Moscow Musketeers *, New Ingermanland Musketeers no lapels, Archangel Musketeers *, Narva Musketeers no collar, Bryansk Musketeers no lapels, Butyrki Musketeers *
I can only think that the choice was random by the War College or by personal preference of the regiment's Chief / Шеф. I could not find a price difference for the variations in the establishment's table of equipment : cost 3.975 rubles each complete with lining, buttons, sewing, etc., 2 year wear-out. So perhaps the extra cost for a collar and/or lapels was paid by the Chief if he wanted his regiment to look better ???

In Alexander's reign, the Russians went to "all green", short tailed, generally no lapels, initially per establishments of 30 April 1802 for Army heavy infantry and garrison units and 29 December 1802 for Guards heavy infantry.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP20 Nov 2021 2:48 p.m. PST

Thanks also…


Armand

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP20 Nov 2021 11:43 p.m. PST

@Michman a quick note of thanks!

I'll copy this over to my files; it is good to read of such accomodating research and cooperation going on!

The whole 'English' book field is wide open on this subject I feel for revision and putting aside those old academic repetitions of partial and biased discourse.

My gaming friends are quite amenable to playing other campaigns and wars, but we do rather lack the basics required in many cases. However there must be a very wide search and interest for this information.

It is only now and exposure to the detailled information presented, and now modern figures in several scales (like Eureka), that we approach 1798/99 campaigns off the 'mainstreams' of Italy/ Egypt/ Spain etc.

My sincere thanks once again,
regards dave≠

Carnot9324 Nov 2021 12:35 p.m. PST

Err, no they didn't.
They were still in Russia and not 'mobilised'.

SHaT1984, since you seem interested in 1805 more broadly, just wanted to point out that the armies that marched west and fought at Austerlitz were not the only armies mobilized by the Russians in 1805. The Pavlov Grenadiers were fully mobilized and did not remain in Russia. Pretty much all Russian regiments, aside from a handful left in garrisons, were mobilized and assigned to armies (armies of the North, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, Moldavia, Reserve along with descent forces for Hanover and Naples).

Pavlov Grenadiers were assigned to Tolstoi's descent force and were a part of the Hanover expedition. They embarked at Kronstadt and sailed on 14 September 1805, landing in Swedish Pomerania on 11 October. The regiment didn't see any action, they just occupied portions of Hanover, although another portion of Tolstoi's descent force invested the French in Hameln. The force wasn't large enough to do much else, so they just waited for the British contingent that didn't arrive until early December at which point it was too late to do anything.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP24 Nov 2021 2:11 p.m. PST

Thanks!


Armand

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP24 Nov 2021 3:33 p.m. PST

Thanks carnot for the clarification/ correction.
I knew about the 'armies' in Russia but nothing about the Hanover counter-invasion forces.
Is the latter documented anywhere in detail?

Thats the Brits- they organise a party and still turn up late!
thanks
dave

Carnot9324 Nov 2021 7:52 p.m. PST

For the British perspective:

Fortescue's History of the British Army, Vol. V, 1803-1807. It's the British perspective, but it covers the diplomatic issues very well – the instability of the Swedish king, the distrust everyone felt towards the Prussians, and some mild criticism of a minor crisis due to a diplomatic faux pas by Tolstoy. There is also a good overview of the limited military operations of all of the parties involved. On Google books if you have access.

For the Russian perspective, Mikhalovsky-Danilevsky's 1805 campaign study is in both Russian and French – Opisanіe pervoj vojny Imperatora Aleksandra s" Napoleonom" v" 1805m" godu, etc / Relation de la campagne de 1805 (Austerlitz). Both on Google books if you have access.

The Swedish perspective is covered in Björlin, Sveriges krig i Tyskland åren 1805-1807 – tough to find. And in Swedish. Maybe not a practical suggestion.

As for the lateness of the Brits, they were facing an invasion flotilla across the channel and had no idea how many troops remained on the channel coast. So I'm not sure I can blame them too much for keeping troops at home until after Trafalgar. Then some bad weather and contrary winds delayed them further. They did manage to land a Hanoverian contingent in mid-November.

If they had all gotten their act together, it would have been an interesting match-up between the Anglo-Russian-Swedish forces and the French B-team that had just been formed 8 November – the new Armée du Nord under Louis Bonaparte.

Are you up on the Russian operations in the Mediterranean in 1805? Flayhart's Counterpoint to Trafalgar: The Anglo-Russian Invasion of Naples, 1805-1806 covers that well, although he garbles some of the Russian names.

Michman24 Nov 2021 11:34 p.m. PST

In addition to his brilliant book "Austerlitz: Napoleon and the Destruction of the Third Coalition", Robert Goetz also did these excellent articles :

Russian Naval Forces in the Mediterranean: 1805-1809
link

Russian Land Forces in the Adriatic: 1803-1807
link

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP28 Nov 2021 3:05 p.m. PST

Many thanks!

Armand

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