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"HELP!!!!! Husares de Almansa 1810" Topic


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olicana16 Nov 2021 9:06 a.m. PST

Okay from Keith's Wargame Site I picked up a link to a piece on the Husares de Almansa it says this:

Húsares de Almansa
The English officer Major-General (in the Spanish service) Whittingham raised the Húsares de Almansa in 1810 with a strength of 400 troopers. The served in Eastern Spain as part of Whittingham's Spanish Division.

Uniform: The uniform was shipped from England and was the same as the British 10th Hussars. An dark blue dolman with scarlet collar and cuffs. An dark blue pelisse with white fur trim. Scarlet and yellow barrel sash. White braid and lace with white metal buttons. White breeches and Hungarian boots. Black a colpack (or busby) with red bag, white over red plume and yellow cords.

The key text is. "Whittingham raised the Húsares de Almansa in 1810" and "The uniform was shipped from England and was the same as the British 10th Hussars."

My problem is this, the description given for the uniform is the uniform of the 10th in 1811 (when they became a Royal regiment) not the one for 1810.

In 1810, the facings for rank and file in the 10th were yellow, red for officers only.

Also, for the 10th in either uniform, the busby was brown for rank and file, and unusually grey for officers; unusually Pelisses for all ranks were trimmed with grey fur (BTW: I can see grey and white getting a bit muddled – grey being unusual for British hussars – and I can fudge the difference in the dry brushing).

With all the distinctions of the 10th, the uniform for the Husares de Almansa wasn't the same if the quoted source is right.

HELLLLLP!!!!!

ADVICE!!!!!!

I wanted to use the unit for both regiments – 10th and Almansa. It now looks like I can't so maybe I should paint it up as 1st Hussars KGL and have done with it.

Please, someone, shoot me!

Cerdic16 Nov 2021 9:32 a.m. PST

Stick with your original plan. If anyone ever questions your figures – shoot them…

Cerdic16 Nov 2021 9:35 a.m. PST

…or, maybe not so drastic, cite several impressive sounding contemporary sources that you have just invented. Usually shuts 'em up…

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP16 Nov 2021 9:47 a.m. PST

If you want to use it for both, use it for both. You are probably going to be the only person who knows, and no one else is going to care. If they object, they can leave.

IronDuke596 Supporting Member of TMP16 Nov 2021 11:17 a.m. PST

The colour plate in "Castalla 1812 y 1813: Dos battalas por el doninio del Leavante Espanol" by Francisoc Vela Santiago shows the Almanza "Dragones" dressed as per British Hussars.

The trooper's plate shows a blue tunic with white collar and white lace, white and blue barrel sash, blue dolman with white fur on the collar, bottom coat trim edge and cuffs.

The officer's tunic is blue with white collar with lacing (perhaps silver) it is hard to discern if the lace is white or silver and the barrel sash is red and yellow.

I hope this helps somewhat.

Acronim16 Nov 2021 12:16 p.m. PST

I have browsed a little bit through Spanish sources and found these two images:

from here: link

from here: link

There are a lot more uniforms, I hope you find it useful.

Prince of Essling16 Nov 2021 1:38 p.m. PST

THE DIARY OF LIEUTENANT ROBERT WOOLLCOMBE, R.A., 1812-1813
S. G. P. Ward
Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research
Vol. 52, No. 211 (AUTUMN 1974), pp. 161-180 (20 pages)
Published by: Society for Army Historical Research

This begins in June 1812 and merely says in entry for 22nd July 1812:
"………. Almansa Hussars: as the 10th Regiment of British Hussars…."

Jose Maria Bueno's illustration in "Uniformes Espanoles de la Guerra de Independencia"

picture

My reading of the database "LA INDEPENDENCIA – HISTORIALES DE UNIDA ÉRCITO ESPAÑOL" by CORONEL DE INFANTERIA (R). JUAN JOSE SAÑUDO BAYON has the Hussars spawning off from the Regiment of Dragoons
February 1811 ordered to proceed to Mallorca
June 1811 embarked Cartagena for Mallorca
1 squadron under Comandante Epifanio Conway
August 1811 numbers about 140 men & 109 horses
March 1812 in Palma de Mallorca with 36 officers, 276 men & 173 horses, commanded by Coronel Francisco Conway
July 1812 embarked with 40 officers, 430 men & 173 horses under Coronel Conway
etc..

But "El Ejercito de los Borbones Reinado de Fernado VII 1808- 1833 Volumen 1 La Guerra nde la Independencia 1808-1814" by M Gomez Ruiz & V. Alonso Juanola published by Ministerio de Defensa makes no mention of Almansa Hussars, just keeps referring to Dragoons…..

olicana16 Nov 2021 1:41 p.m. PST

ID596: Yet another variation, though I think this might be a different unit again!

Acronim: The yellow coated Almanza Dragoons are a different unit, but thanks. I've bookmarked your link – it's one I did't have.

Spanish post 1809 are a nightmare!

olicana16 Nov 2021 1:46 p.m. PST

Hi P of E: I have that pic, but that is not the uniform of the 10th, that's the problem.

10th had yellow facings in 1810, changed to red 1811. They had brown or grey (officer) fur caps. pelisse trim was grey fur (all ranks). Oh, and shabraque and roll were red, shabraque with white piped red dragon teeth edge (possibly 1811).

Prince of Essling16 Nov 2021 2:14 p.m. PST

@Olicana, Noted – I think I would paint them up in the latter uniform for the 10th Hussars based on the movements citd above.

olicana16 Nov 2021 2:31 p.m. PST

Hi P of E,

That's pretty much my thoughts too. I don't know if the uniform description quoted is of the Almansa, or this modern picture of the Almansa – and obviously a translation at that.

Your movement notes are interesting because they were largely raised in 1811 and didn't reach deployment establishment until July 1812. That means they may well have been equipped in the 10th's 1811 uniform with red cap bags and facings.

I'm going to paint them up as the 10th as per 1811. They will figure more as the 10th than Almansa in any event. I am only painting them as the 10th to get double bubble to bump my Spanish cavalry numbers when required.

Blimey, I hate researching Spanish armies post 1809. Before that, easy peazy: after that it's like wading through very thick treacle.

Prince of Essling17 Nov 2021 12:52 p.m. PST

From Division Mallorquina website link :

Regimiento de Dragones de Almansa
1ª Fuente = Uniforme como los húsares ingleses. Pelliza azul, guarnición y pieles blancas, dolman y chaqueta de cuartel azul, con cuello, vuelta, cuello, guarnición y botón blanco, pantalón azul y de ante, bota con espuela, gorra de piel de color gris, carrilleras doradas y cordones blancos. Silla de madera con mantilla azul, guarnición blanca, correaje de color de avellana, todo a lo húsar; brida y filete, tercerola, una pistola, sable curvo con vaina de hierro, cinturón y todo el correaje blanco y portapliegos negro charolado

2ª = Almansa Hussars: as the 10th Regiment of British Hussars;

4ª = casaca chupa y calzón y capa amarilla, vuelta azul, botón blanco

link

Sources are given as follows (numbers shown above relate to those against the sources below):
REFERENCIAS UNIFORMOLÓGICAS PRIMARIAS DE LAS Us. DE LA DIVISION MALLORQUINA

Fuentes
1ª – Documento Archivo Histórico Nacional Madrid
(referencia: Palma de Mallorca; Colecciones; diversos; Caja 88) Fecha cita: 14-III-1812


2ª – "The Diary of Lieutenant Robert Woolcombe, R.A., 1812-1813' Ward, S.G.P., ed., Journal of the SAHR vol. LII (1974) fecha cita: 22-VII-1812


3ª – LOS UNIFORMES DEL ESTADO MILITAR DE ESPAÑA DEL AÑO 1815
Manzano y Grávalos Madrid 2002


4ª – EL EJÉRCITO DE LOS BORBONES (vol. V*) M. Gómez Ruiz y V. Alonso Juanola Madrid 1999


5ª – UNIFORMES MILITARES ESPAÑOLES. EL EJÉRCITO Y LA ARMADA EN 1808 José María Bueno Málaga 1982

Perhaps this has the answer:

picture

link
link
picture

Prince of Essling18 Nov 2021 6:15 a.m. PST

The more I read, the more I conclude that they remained Almanza Dragoons but dressed in the style of Hussars. The blame for Almanza Hussars falls to the British observers at the times who saw the troops dressed in British supplied Hussar uniforms and naming them Almanza Hussars.

olicana18 Nov 2021 10:46 a.m. PST

Thanks P of E.

The Almanza Dragoons were dressed in cavaly Cazadore uniform from 1807 / 1808. Almanza Dragoon uniform was sky blue dolman with red facings, white shako cords and red plume (Haythornethwaite).

However, I don't think the Hussares de Almansa raised by Whittingham in 1810 and equipped with British supplied uniforms, 'the same as the 10th Hussars', is the same unit.

As with much that is Spanish post 1808, things are very complicated.

Prince of Essling18 Nov 2021 2:47 p.m. PST

@Olicana,

The reason for my conclusion is that all of the OoBs for the East Coast mention the Almansa Dragoons. There is NO mention of the Almansa Hussars when in theory if they actually existed as a unit they should be present. The only time they are mentioned apart from Bueno is in British accounts including page 179 in "A memoir of the services of Lieutenant-General Sir Samuel Ford Whittingham, K.C.B., K.C.H., G.C.F., colonel of the 71st Highland light infantry" PDF link

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