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"UK & France prepared to strike USSR’s Baku oil fields" Topic


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Perun Gromovnik15 Nov 2021 9:40 a.m. PST

Between 1939-1940, Britain and France were actively planning a joint strike at the USSR and destroy the Baku oil fields. This information was present in the documents first presented in Moscow at the exhibition "On the Eve of the Great Patriotic War. September 1, 1939 – June 22, 1941".

link

Murvihill15 Nov 2021 10:14 a.m. PST

And the US had plans to invade Canada. It's called contingency planning and all good military staffs do it.

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Nov 2021 10:51 a.m. PST

It may be worth pointing out that, at that time, Stalin had agreed to sell Hitler oil from those oilfields and had also cooperated over the invasion of Poland. Contingency planning for an entirely plausible scenario is good planning.

Heedless Horseman15 Nov 2021 10:58 a.m. PST

Probably true. All sorts of 'plans' postulated by Military Staffs. That's what their job is.
One wonders if there was a pre-emptive US strike against the IJN hypothesised… but THAT would have been destroyed long ago!

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2021 3:06 p.m. PST

Makes sense, especially since the USSR was allied with Germany early in the war.

Cuprum215 Nov 2021 4:53 p.m. PST

Wow! Thresher01, and where can you see the Alliance Agreement?
Was Poland allied with Hitler when they jointly occupied Czechoslovakia in 1938?

PzGeneral15 Nov 2021 5:30 p.m. PST

I believe Thresher01 is referring to the German-Soviet Nonaggression pact. Agreeing to split up Poland, and the Soviets moving in even before Poland surrendered equates to an Alliance to me….

link

Cuprum215 Nov 2021 5:48 p.m. PST

I understand what he means. But military alliance implies concerted military action and common goals – isn't it? The USSR did not undertake any military obligations to Germany. In the event of the outbreak of war in Europe (and no one doubted its occurrence), the USSR intended to regain those territories that had been forcibly torn away from Soviet Russia during the recent Civil War. And an agreement was reached with Germany that it would not claim these territories in case of war. Everything.
In fact, the same thing that Poland did in Czechoslovakia. I repeat: Poland – Hitler's ally?

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2021 6:59 p.m. PST

I didn't say they did.

Perun Gromovnik15 Nov 2021 9:39 p.m. PST

It wasnt just contingency planing it was real plan.
Didnt USSR wanted to go to war with Germany ower Czechoslovakia in 1938., didnt UK and France refused to help and betrayed its allay Czechoslovakia, didnt USSR want alliance with UK and France but UK didnt want alliance

Martin Rapier16 Nov 2021 3:04 a.m. PST

The Baku raid is a fairly well known event. The bombers were actually lined up on the runway ready go before it was cancelled (iirc it was the French who stopped it).

The Western Allies were full of all sorts of bright ideas early in the war, anything to avoid actually fighting the Germans on the western front.

Blutarski16 Nov 2021 7:32 a.m. PST

I think the moral to this story is that distrust cuts in all directions.

B

Umpapa17 Nov 2021 9:52 a.m. PST

One example of Cuprum truthfulness: "the USSR intended to regain those territories that had been forcibly torn away from Soviet Russia during the recent Civil War."
That is classic deceitful Soviet Stalinist propaganda. Lwów (now Lviv) never before 1939 was part of Russia nor USSR. Lwów was city of Habsburg Empire during Poland Partition.

Cuprum217 Nov 2021 4:57 p.m. PST

I agree that the question of Lvov, and of Galicia in general, stands apart. Lvov really was not part of the Russian Empire. But these are Ukrainian territories with a predominantly Ukrainian population (except for Lviv at that time), so for a very long time there was a question of uniting all territories with a predominantly Ukrainian population.
Here you can really talk about the occupation of the territory by Soviet troops. However, I wonder what the Ukrainians will say about this? :-)

Perun Gromovnik18 Nov 2021 1:36 a.m. PST

There is good ethnic map


picture

With planed operations against Soviets in kavkaz and scandinavia one have to ask himself who was really enemy of France and UK. They had phony war with country with which they were in war and real plans for country with which they were not in war. It is no surprise that Stalin didnt trust British warnings for Barbarossa

Andy ONeill18 Nov 2021 3:41 a.m. PST

I seem to recall there was a british recon plane shot down by the Russians whilst they were planning this raid.

Nine pound round18 Nov 2021 7:52 a.m. PST

Baku, or the Map Game

It's Jolly to look at the map, and finish the foe in a day.
It's not easy to get at the chap; these neutrals are so in the way.
But what if you say 'what would you do to fill the aggressor with gloom?'
Well, we might drop a bomb on Baku. Or what about bombs on Batum?

Other methods, of course, may be found. We might send a fleet up the Inn.
We might burrow far underground and come up in the heart of Berlin.
But I think a more promising clue to the Totalitarian doom
is the dropping of bombs on Baku.
And perhaps a few bombs on Batum.

The scale of the map should be small if you're winning the war in a day.
it mustn't show mountains at all, for mountains may be in the way.
But, taking a statesmanlike view, and sitting at home in a room,
I'm all for some bombs on Baku. And, of course, a few bombs on Batum.

Sometimes I invade the dear Dutch. Sometimes I descend on the Danes.
They oughtn't to mind very much, and they don't seem to have any planes.
I slip through the Swiss and say 'Boo!'. I pop over the Alps and say 'Boom!'.
But I still drop a few bombs on Baku. And I always drop bombs on Batum.

Vladivostok is not very far. Sometimes I attack him from there.
With the troops in a rather fast car, I am on him before he's aware.
And then, it's so hard to say who, is fighting, precisely, with whom,
that I know about bombing Baku, I insist upon bombing Batum.

A.P Herbert, 1940

Perun Gromovnik18 Nov 2021 12:18 p.m. PST

As of 1 April, four squadrons comprising 48 Bristol Blenheim Mk IV bombers were transferred to the Middle East Command and were supplemented with a number of single-engined Wellesley bombers for night missions. A French force of 65 Martin Maryland bombers and a supplementary force of 24 Farman F.222 heavy bombers were allocated for night operations during the campaign. The French were preparing new air fields in Syria that were expected to be ready by 15 May. The campaign was expected to last three months and over 1,000 short tons (910 t) of bombs were allocated to the operation: 404 × 500 lb (230 kg) semi-armour-piercing bombs, 554 × 500 lb (230 kg) and 5,188 × 250 lb (110 kg) general-purpose bombs and 69,192 × 4 lb (1.8 kg) incendiary bombs.

link

Does anyone have OOB for this operation, which squadrons were involved

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