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"Another Russian 1812 flag question" Topic


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13 Nov 2021 10:12 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Crossposted to Flags and Banners board

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Comments or corrections?

AnimalBones13 Nov 2021 9:45 a.m. PST

I would like to purchase flags for Russian 1812 4th division (Kremenchug, Minsk, Tobolsk, Volhynie regiments). Please could someone help me with a source for what the flags looked like. I have gone to fighting flags but the flags are ordered by inspection. I have founds nowhere I can either purchase or print these flags (nor even what they look like). I am at a loss on finding these flags. Many thanks.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Nov 2021 9:57 a.m. PST

All Russian Infantry Flags for Borodino.

boki.ee/8BLOG/Blog_0006/Blog.htm

AnimalBones13 Nov 2021 10:55 a.m. PST

Thank you. Hopefully I can scale the pdf up for 15 mm no problem

Personal logo ColCampbell Supporting Member of TMP13 Nov 2021 11:18 a.m. PST

Here are some sources:

picture

The above link stated that the Kremenchug & Minsk Regiments were in the Siberian Inspectorate and Volhynie in the Lithuanian. The Tobolsk used the 1797 pattern.

From NapFlags site link , you have:

Tobolsk with 1797 pattern -- link (bottom row)

Volhynie with Lithuanian Inspectorate 1803 pattern -- link (third row down)

Kremenchug & Minsk with Siberian 1803 pattern -- link (bottom row)

Just copy and crop the images, then print them out. I've done that for many of my Napoleonic regiments.

Jim

AnimalBones13 Nov 2021 2:38 p.m. PST

These are super, thank you

14Bore13 Nov 2021 4:48 p.m. PST

I print, use thin white glue and crinkle them some

Michman14 Nov 2021 9:35 a.m. PST

Kremenchug
The Kremenchug Musketeer regiment was formed from 14 June 1806 and assigned to the 17th Infantry division.
They were issued 1 white and 5 color flags 1803 Model on 31 March 1807. The color was "дикий цвет", literally "wild color", made by dying with iron vitriol in various concentrations to obtain a color in the range of silver-gray to dark-steel, often with a reddish tinge.
A color-chart from 1799 shows the tone used in the Russian military as a mid to darker gray see on the right coloumn, 5th from the bottom :

picture

A commissary report on army flags in the mid 1820's described the color of the kremenchugets' flag as "rosey-gray".
picture

picture

1808-1809 : siege of Sveaborg.
The regiment was transferred to the 4th Infantry division on 5 April 1809 and renamed Kremenchug Infantry regiment on 22 February 1811.
Woodwork, including flagstaffs, was initially ordered as "coffee" colored a dark brown shade, second from the bottom on the left in the chart linked above. Per an order of 8 December 1808, they might or might not have repainted to black. It is (and was at the time) unclear if the order was retroactive.
The kremenchugets were armed with Russian Model 1808 muskets by 1812.

Minsk
The above applies exactly also to the Minsk Infantry regiment, except that the woodwork was initially black and they may or may not have repainted to straw yellow per the 1808 order.

picture

picture

Tobolsk
Viskovatov mis-labels the Podolia (Подольскiй) Musketeer regiment as the Tobolsk (Тобольскiй) Musketeer regiment, receiving 1803 Model flags with [straw] yellow crosses of the Brest inspection. The Tobolsk Musketeer regiment was then in the Livonia inspection.
This error is even easier to make when using Russian cursive handwriting,

picture

On 2 July 1798, the Tobolsk Musketeer regimeent received 1 white and 9 color flags of the 1797 Model.
picture

picture

On 4 May 1806, the regiment transferred to the 4th Infantry division and renamed Tobolsk Infantry regiment on 22 February 1811.
1806-1807 : Pulutsk, Preussisch-Eylau, siege of Danzig.
Woodwork, including flagstaffs, was initially black. Per the order of 8 December 1808, they might or might not have repainted to straw yellow.
They were armed with Russian Model 1808 muskets by 1812.

Volhynia
The Volhynia Musketeer regiment was formed from 16 May 1803 and assigned to the Lithuania inspection and then on 4 May 1806 to the 6th Infantry division, finally transferring to the 4th Infantry division on 9 April 1809. They were issued 1 white and 5 color flags of 1803 Model on 20 October 1803. The color was green.
From the 1799 color chart, see right volumn, 4th from the top :

picture

picture

picture

They were renamed Volhynia Infantry regiment on 22 February 1811.
Woodwork, including flagstaffs, was black.
They were armed with British Brown Bess muskets (with Russian leatherwork) by 1812.

If I am correct that none of the regiments had lost flags, with the 4th Infantry division in 1812 they would each have had 1 white and 1 color flag with the 1st Chief's battalion and 2 color flags with the 3rd Commander's battalion and no flags with the two Combined Grenadier battalions of the division.

von Winterfeldt14 Nov 2021 10:28 a.m. PST

wow fantastic information.

AnimalBones15 Nov 2021 5:43 a.m. PST

Michigan, that is amazing work, thank you

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