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"Why America Loses Wars" Topic


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23 Oct 2021 3:58 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP23 Oct 2021 3:27 p.m. PST

"The U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan is moving to its inevitable conclusion. The Taliban, the radical Islamists the U.S. was fighting, are taking back control of the country, one city at a time. Put differently, the United States has lost the war it fought for the past 20 years. There are those who want to continue to fight, but I doubt that another 20 years will bring victory considering that the definition of success is vague and wildly ambitious. The goal was to transform an ancient and complex society from what it was to into what we wanted it to be. Defeating a country comprising warring factions and imposing peace and a new culture was beyond Washington's reach.

This is not the first war the U.S. has lost since World War II, and given the overwhelming military power of the United States, it must be explained. To explain it, we must begin with World War II, in which the United States was confronted with a conflict initiated by Japan and Germany. The United States responded by defining war as eliminating the enemy's military and shattering the enemies' society by destroying their industrial plants and cities. Victory required the enemy's defeat and a social and moral transformation of the defeated.

World War II taught the United States a number of lessons. The first was that the decision on timing was made by U.S. enemies. Pearl Harbor and Hitlers' declaration of war made the decision on Washington's behalf at a time that suited them. It took away the advantage of initiative, beyond nibbling at the edges of the war. Second, Washington learned that in fighting an enemy you must use overwhelming force and that it was essential to shatter not only the military but also the morale of the nation as a whole. The U.S. would do that by applying overwhelming force on the enemy's military and society…"
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Armand

Midlander6524 Oct 2021 1:00 p.m. PST

What actual wars, against an enemy state with soldiers that wear uniforms has the US lost?

Seems to me that the mistake is calling security operations against insurgents, who look identical to the people we (in the broadest sense) are meant to be protecting and who hide amongst them, wars then expecting to ‘win' by purely military means.

Mad Max24 Oct 2021 3:21 p.m. PST

Wars we shouldn't have been involved in

OSCS7425 Oct 2021 5:51 a.m. PST

The US does not fight wars. We fight in police actions. I was told during the Clinton administration if an USS ship was attacked by 3 missile boats we could not fire if the boats were turned around because they were no longer a threat. The way to win wars is to not only destroy the missile boats but also destroy any military assets from the base and they came from.

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP25 Oct 2021 6:53 a.m. PST

Stop being nice, war or combat is dirty and mean. The US needs to be dirty and mean again stop worrying about " How" the enemy feels. Years ago the left wing in the States found out to their great horror that the makers of the ACOG 3X scope had secretly place Bible versus on the side of the scope and complained and the company had to remove them. The reasoning behind this besides anti-Christianity, was how will the insurgents and the Taliban react. Really!? Who bloody cares what they think, besides the fact they hate us.

Legion 425 Oct 2021 8:17 a.m. PST

Irish Marine +1 …

I'm a bit simplistic/old school old fart … The only good enemy is a dead enemy.

What is not to get ?

Oddball26 Oct 2021 5:50 a.m. PST

"The reasoning behind this besides anti-Christianity, was how will the insurgents and the Taliban react."

"attacked by 3 missile boats we could not fire if the boats were turned around because they were no longer a threat."

Examples of why the "United" States is a nation in decline.

I remember during the Clinton administration a bombing run on some nation was conducted by US carrier based aircraft. On one of the 1,000 lbs bombs an armorer had written in chalk that the bomb was a gift to using a term derogatory to Muslims, with compliments from Uncle Sam.

You've seen this sort of thing written on artillery shells and bombs since the Great War and probably before but there weren't cameras recording it.

Yet, now things have changed and the armorer who wrote that was dismissed from US service being racially mean.

It is one thing to drop a 1,000 lbs bomb on someone, but lets not call them names while we are doing it.

The fall of the "United" State will not be rapid, but it is inevitable. Too far gone.

Legion 426 Oct 2021 9:45 a.m. PST

I remember during the Clinton administration a bombing run on some nation was conducted by US carrier based aircraft. On one of the 1,000 lbs bombs an armorer had written in chalk that the bomb was a gift to using a term derogatory to Muslims, with compliments from Uncle Sam.
Well you wouldn't want to hurt anybody's feeling would ya? I mean it's only an Airstrike on enemy combatants … after all.

Yet, now things have changed and the armorer who wrote that was dismissed from US service being racially mean.
Worse yet … he may have to take classes on wokeness, CRT, equity, diversity, etc.

It is one thing to drop a 1,000 lbs bomb on someone, but lets not call them names while we are doing it.
Not very woke, CRT, etc., have you not read about this/miss the classes ?

The fall of the "United" State will not be rapid, but it is inevitable. Too far gone.
Well the USA will just change it's name to the USSA … No problem !

Choctaw26 Oct 2021 10:07 a.m. PST

The U.S. military lost it's killer instinct when it concerned itself with social experimentation. We are more worried about feelings and optics rather than winning conflicts. Harry Morant comes to mind:

If you encounter any Boers
You really must not loot 'em!
And if you wish to leave these shores,
For pity's sake, DON'T SHOOT 'EM!!

Wolfhag26 Oct 2021 11:57 a.m. PST

Nice guys finish last.

Wolfhag

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2021 2:26 p.m. PST

(smile)

Armand

Wolfhag27 Oct 2021 3:31 p.m. PST

The "Greatest Generation" in WWII were not nice guys. When the going got tough they fired bombed and nuked civilians. If they had done the same to NVN and the sanctuaries of the Taliban and ISIS things may have turned out differently. I'm not advocating targeting civilians, just stating some historical facts and opinion.

Some historians say nuking Japan saved lives rather than invading or starving the population. In 1965 the US could have leveled Hanoi, Haiphong and other infrastructure and blockaded their ports and supply from China. Most likely the war would have ended much sooner with hardly any fighting in the south, Agent Orange poisoning of the countryside and thousands of tons of explosives littering the countryside causing death for decades. Instead they tried to be the nice guy and underestimated the enemy. During the initial Rolling Thunder bombing campaign the US told the NVN the maximum latitude north they'd be bombing and assured them we would not target their ports or population centers. I this may be unprecedented in the history of modern warfare.

It sure would have saved a lot of American lives and probably Vietnamese lives too. I'm not advocating nuking civilians – again. Just reviewing some history.

Wolfhag

Legion 430 Oct 2021 3:44 p.m. PST

Tight ROE and CD changed the concept of war. And not always for the better in some/many cases. We couldn't win hearts & minds in Vietnam. And trying it in Iraq & A'stan was not much better. Especially with the strong religious, tribal, etc., beliefs in those regions.

It sure would have saved a lot of American lives and probably Vietnamese lives too. I'm not advocating nuking civilians – again. Just reviewing some history.
Too busy trying to win hearts & mind to win the war …

As some have said Nukes don't win wars … they end them … Nor am I advocating the use of Nukes almost ever. WWII was the best use of them. It ended the war and saved a lot of lives on all sides. In the long run …

alexpainter10 Nov 2021 6:36 a.m. PST

sadly the principal problem is that we(in general the western civilizations) are at war with people that don't share our same values, so being nice against them isn't a good idea.
You can add some suicidal/moronic attitudes in some of our people, f.e. when w. german's special forces attacked at Mogadishu an hijacked airliner and saved the passengers killing most of the terrorists, in some newspapers complained about how they haven't tried to save the scumbags, or when in France an AirAlgerie airliner was freed by French SF, with the obliteration of EVERY terrorist….well in a (radical chic/leftist)magazine the action was labelled as a sort of "police brutality".

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