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"Should The U.S. Invade Haiti?" Topic


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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP22 Oct 2021 3:26 p.m. PST

"Apparently ignoring every "lesson" of the last two decades of utterly failed and disastrous US foreign interventions and adventurism abroad, which has left especially the Middle East burning and in a state of perpetual destabilization, The Washington Post editorial board is calling for yet more experiments in nation-building, this time much closer to home in a seeming throwback to era of the Monroe Doctrine.

"Haiti's spiraling mayhem, florid lawlessness and humanitarian meltdown were predictable following the assassination of President Jovenel Moïse in July," the op-ed published earlier in the week began. "In a country already crippled by governmental dysfunction, the vacuum of political legitimacy and authority after that murder left a breeding ground for anarchy." Naturally the premier hawkish beltway publication owned by Jeff Bezos and tied at the hip with the D.C. national security state sees only a singular "solution"…"
Main page

link


Now way….

Armand

Thresher0122 Oct 2021 3:44 p.m. PST

I see no positive outcome or upside from doing so.

Those there need to sort out and run their own affairs.

Ryan Zulu22 Oct 2021 4:21 p.m. PST

No.

Those people have fire in their bellies and have demonstrated what they can do, once united under a common cause.
The French will attest to it.

Invading will only further exacerbate the internal frictions, as we saw, and largely predicted in Iraq/Afghanistan.

You can give a man a fish and la la la but they know how to fish.

It's a corruption issue and nothing more and that needs dealing with internally.
Earthquakes and such have nothing to do with the instability, whatever those with exploitative interests may say.

If motivation can be found to unite the nation under a common cause, they will prevail.
No need to send young men to die.

CFeicht Supporting Member of TMP22 Oct 2021 5:05 p.m. PST

Sounds like Haiti is invading the US.

Inch High Guy22 Oct 2021 5:13 p.m. PST

Never pet a burning dog.

John the OFM22 Oct 2021 5:35 p.m. PST

Simply because it's a habit is no reason to invade Haiti.
Wish them luck. That's it.

Personal logo Dan Cyr Supporting Member of TMP22 Oct 2021 6:30 p.m. PST

If we did, how many times would that make in the last 150 years? How about the 19 straight years we occupied it and ran the government (for our benefit)?

Haiti is a failed area, as it does not qualify as a state. Money down a rat hole.

Want to save the population, let them all leave and be accepted else where (as legal immigrants).

No one can govern Haiti unless their a nasty dictator and even then they'll fail. The controlling elites in Haiti have it set up and running as they want it. They have no desire to actually have a functioning government of more than the bare appearance of one.

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP22 Oct 2021 6:42 p.m. PST

No, the Marine Corps spent a lot of time there years ago, we don't need to go back. Haiti for the Haitians let them solve their own problems.

Glengarry522 Oct 2021 10:07 p.m. PST

Again?

Nick Bowler23 Oct 2021 2:18 a.m. PST

Note that while the link provided by Armand states the Washington Post is advocating invasion, the actual Washington Post article says no such thing -- in fact it pretty much says nothing. The most provocative statement is " In the cost-benefit analysis that would attend any fresh intervention, policymakers must be alert to the risks, but also to the enormous peril of continuing to do nothing."

If anything, when you see "Naturally the premier hawkish beltway publication owned by Jeff Bezos and tied at the hip with the D.C. national security state" in the original link you can see immediately that you are in tin foil hat territory. The link is from zerohedge – which wikipedia describes as "Over time, Zero Hedge expanded into non-financial analysis,[c] including conspiracy theories and fringe rhetoric[27] associated with the US radical right,[14][28] the alt-right,[29][30][31] and a pro-Russian bias.[1][32][33][34] "

Armand – I enjoy your clips – but please try to stay away from the nutcase fringe.

Oddball23 Oct 2021 3:24 a.m. PST

Yes, it is the job of the US military to implement a strike force for "meals on wheels" action.

We, the "United" States, should foot the bill to take care of the entire world that doesn't seem to be able to take care of itself. Then get blamed for not doing it right.

Maybe we should make everybody in the world a citizen of the US. That would solve all the problems.

Everything is going great, couldn't be better.

Extrabio1947 Supporting Member of TMP23 Oct 2021 4:22 a.m. PST

"‘We can't seem to mind our own business,
‘Cause the whole world has to be just like us.
Now we are fighting a war over there,
No matter who's the winner, we can't pay the cost."

- "Monster" by Steppenwolf

Still seems relevant, somehow….

OSCS7423 Oct 2021 7:49 a.m. PST

Oh, no, oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Legion 423 Oct 2021 11:34 a.m. PST

No … like many places in the world, Haiti is a "money pit", with little to show for it. Like many places in Africa, the Mid East, etc.

But we still have to get the 17(?) US missionaries being held hostage there by criminal gang.

SEALs, Delta Force, etc., seems it be the way to free them IMO. The criminals should not survive the raid.

Col Durnford23 Oct 2021 1:58 p.m. PST

Yes to the rescue. Go in, clean house, and withdraw the same day.

I sometimes wonder why the Dominican Republic does not seem to have as many issue as Haiti does?

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP23 Oct 2021 2:09 p.m. PST

Thanks!

Armand

Totenkopf Supporting Member of TMP23 Oct 2021 4:29 p.m. PST

I find it hard to take any article authored by Tyler Durden (Fight Club ring any bells?) seriously. Moreover, the US was called upon to send troops to Haiti when the most recent unrest erupted several months ago. At the time we replied that no troops would be forthcoming. Nothing has changed to alter that initial decision.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP23 Oct 2021 11:51 p.m. PST

Seriously?

SouthernPhantom24 Oct 2021 12:27 a.m. PST

Absolutely not.

Dave Jackson Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2021 6:17 a.m. PST

No they should not. Here is an interesting article discussing the differences between the two countries:

link

Legion 424 Oct 2021 7:11 a.m. PST

Something we saw with Somalia, it was believe by those in DC/WH, etc. That with all the footage of all the starving Africa children, etc., there. If we did not intervene it would appear America is racists. Regardless of the truth, facts, reality, etc. And we know how well that turned out. IIRC, besides the losses our military took, which was far too many, Somalia seems to be not much better off ?

I think Haiti may be the same situation, especially now with the current woke, CRT, etc., environment. Reality vs. racism, cause vs. effect, need vs. logistics vs. $, etc. That being said the US as well as many European countries, NGOs, etc., have sent/sends a lot of $, aid, support, etc., to many of these nations(?) in need. And again which seems to do little for the most part.

I remember decades ago as a kid old fart, seeing footage, pics, etc., of starving children, etc., in Somalia, other places in Africa, Haiti, etc., etc. They could have used some of the same footage today, decades after they were taken.

So I don't know the answers. I ain't that smart. But what I do know the US, the UN, the West, etc., can't fix anything unless those failed & failing states, societies, etc., want to be "fixed". And it has to start from within. Not from the outside …

We have spent a lot of time "teaching these places how to fish, so they can eat forever" … However, looks like they'd rather have it catered … 🐟

arealdeadone24 Oct 2021 1:04 p.m. PST

Haiti has and always will be a failed state. Leave them to their own devices.

Striker25 Oct 2021 6:27 a.m. PST

No.

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP25 Oct 2021 7:36 a.m. PST

It didn't work out so well the first time, so I vote "No."

jamemurp25 Oct 2021 1:30 p.m. PST

Zerohedge. Yikes!

The major media outlets are generally very pro-war. Not terribly surprising when you consider that they are deeply tied into both Washington (the major networks employ a ton of ex military/DOD/etc. talking heads and "experts") and corporations that make a killing as military suppliers. WaPo is Bezos owned, so again, not terribly surprising they are all in on MIC adventurism. See also the media buildup of military action in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I laugh every time someone mentions the "liberal" media in context of national corporate run media companies that only exist due to massive deregulation and constantly push foreign adventurism while ignoring the massive human costs.

Haiti has and always will be a failed state.
You might want to brush up on why that is. Here's a hint- it's not because major powers left (or leave!) them alone to mind their own affairs.

arealdeadone25 Oct 2021 2:24 p.m. PST

Here's a hint- it's not because major powers left (or leave!) them alone to mind their own affairs.

Colonial intervention doesn't explain it all – it never does. If the colonial narrative was true then Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea (and to lesser degree every single Latin American and SE Asian country) would still be third world hell holes ala Haiti or Somalia- indeed up to 1960s many African countries had higher living standards than South Korea.

I think a lot of the issue with Haiti is its culture – totally corrupt, totally lacking in civil society, rampant population growth, massive criminalisation. Haiti has never had a competent leader let alone anything approaching a competent civil service.

Neighbouring Cuba and Dominican Republic (on same island) are far better organised and have far better living standards despite all their colonial/US intervention (US invaded Dominican Republic as late as 1965), authoritarianism and Cuba's dysfunctional sanction slammed communism.

And it has been unable to develop at all despite being the first independent Latin American state having been founded in 1804!

If the world left Haiti to its devices it would collapse completely and still be a massive source of refugees.

It is like Afghanistan – a broken place doomed to failure.

Augustus Supporting Member of TMP25 Oct 2021 3:37 p.m. PST

When has Haiti ever been worthwhile?

Legion 425 Oct 2021 4:35 p.m. PST

Got to agree with you ardo …

jamemurp … not so much …

jamemurp26 Oct 2021 5:21 a.m. PST

So are you saying Haitians are somehow inferior to other people and incapable of self governance? Or maybe, just maybe, there is such a thing as history and context.

Haiti's history is completely different from the Asian nations you mention. You completely gloss over the fact that when Haiti did finally obtain independence after 300 years of subjugation, French recognized Haiti's independence (in 1825) but in return demanded a hefty indemnity of 150 million francs (France had warships in the water and were prepared to reconquer Haiti). That's approximately $21 USD billion. The next century was basically debt servicing for a country that had sold its people as slaves and borrowed heavily from Western banks. Even then, the US would not recognize Haiti until 1862, largely because of Southern slave states (who would revolt and join the Confederacy).

It's funny you mention the DR. You do realize Dominican soldiers were involved in revolts against Haitian sovereignty in the 1800s right? The US has also been directly involved in contributing to Haitian instability- In 1914 the US seized half a million dollars from the Haitian National Bank and occupied the country in 1915 to install a more US friendly leader and didn't leave until 1934 (at which point the Dominicans engaged in a massive slaughter of Haitians).

Much like Afghanistan, this is an area where constant foreign interventionism has left the country lacking vital infrastructure and stability. But I guess it is easier to blame the people living there rather than admit *any* responsibility, even while acknowledging that military interference has failed miserably.

Legion 426 Oct 2021 9:04 a.m. PST

So are you saying Haitians are somehow inferior to other people and incapable of self governance?
I say … they should go for it … but they have before … so …

Then the US, NGOs, etc., gets involved to turn an humanitarian crisis into a less humanitarian crisis. If the US, etc. don't get involved then the media would say the US is racist, i.e. they are "inferior to others". Not my words BTW …

Just as was alluded during our intervention in Somali. If you don't help you are racists, if you do help then someone says –

Much like Afghanistan, this is an area where constant foreign interventionism has left the country lacking vital infrastructure and stability. But I guess it is easier to blame the people living there rather than admit *any* responsibility, even while acknowledging that military interference has failed miserably.

Seems to me a no win situation … If a nation in Europe, is failing[e.g. Greece] and the US, other Euros, etc., don't get involved does that mean the US, etc., are racist [to Greeks ?]?

I don't think so … If you take "the racist" out of the equation. Be logical, etc., it comes down to leadership, logistics, etc. Race not withstanding … IMO … of course …

By stating "somehow inferior to other people and incapable of self governance?" Is racist, by any other words … very Orwellian, yes, ?

But I guess it is easier to blame the people living there
The only way things will change in places like Haiti, much of the Mid East, Africa, etc. IMO The home team has to take some responsibility ? Or are they "inferior to others" as some would say ?

arealdeadone26 Oct 2021 11:45 a.m. PST

I am saying Haiti is a failed state and it's culture prevents progress.

It's endemic weakness promotes interventionism.

Legion 426 Oct 2021 3:52 p.m. PST

I am saying Haiti is a failed state and it's culture prevents progress.
And Haiti is not the only place in the world that this happens. Again places like much of the Mid East, Africa and A'stan …

JimSelzer27 Oct 2021 9:53 p.m. PST

Hell no
We already have one Puerto Rico why add another

Oddball28 Oct 2021 5:56 a.m. PST

I think it is strange they have a statue up the Haitian capital of a guy who ordered, supported and participated in the murder of children, women, the elderly and clergy, yet seen as the hero of the country.

1,000's of people killed on his orders.

Just a regular guy28 Oct 2021 8:24 a.m. PST

NO!

Legion 428 Oct 2021 11:40 a.m. PST

The USA still has not got our 16 missionaries back from a criminal gang there. Someone in our gov't should do something …

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